Wikipedia:Featured article candidates

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This star, with one point broken, indicates that an article is a candidate on this page.

Here, we determine which articles are to be featured articles (FAs). FAs exemplify Wikipedia's very best work and satisfy the FA criteria. All editors are welcome to review nominations; please see the review FAQ.

Before nominating an article, nominators may wish to receive feedback by listing it at Peer review and adding the review to the FAC peer review sidebar. Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to seek the involvement of a mentor, to assist in the preparation and processing of the nomination. Nominators must be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal with objections during the featured article candidates (FAC) process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article before nominating it. Nominators are expected to respond positively to constructive criticism and to make efforts to address objections promptly. An article should not be on Featured article candidates and Peer review or Good article nominations at the same time.

The FAC coordinators—Ian Rose, Gog the Mild, Buidhe and Hog Farm—determine the timing of the process for each nomination. For a nomination to be promoted to FA status, consensus must be reached that it meets the criteria. Consensus is built among reviewers and nominators; the coordinators determine whether there is consensus. A nomination will be removed from the list and archived if, in the judgment of the coordinators:

  • actionable objections have not been resolved;
  • consensus for promotion has not been reached;
  • insufficient information has been provided by reviewers to judge whether the criteria have been met; or
  • a nomination is unprepared, after at least one reviewer has suggested it be withdrawn.

It is assumed that all nominations have good qualities; this is why the main thrust of the process is to generate and resolve critical comments in relation to the criteria, and why such resolution is given considerably more weight than declarations of support.

Do not use graphics or complex templates on FAC nomination pages. Graphics such as  Done and  Not done slow down the page load time, and complex templates can lead to errors in the FAC archives. For technical reasons, templates that are acceptable are {{collapse top}} and {{collapse bottom}}, used to hide offtopic discussions, and templates such as {{green}} that apply colours to text and are used to highlight examples without altering fonts. Other templates such as {{done}}, {{not done}}, {{tq}}, {{tq2}}, and {{xt}}, may be removed.

An editor is allowed to be the sole nominator of only one article at a time, but two nominations may be allowed if the editor is a co-nominator on at least one of them. If a nomination is archived, the nominator(s) should take adequate time to work on resolving issues before re-nominating. None of the nominators may nominate or co-nominate any article for two weeks unless given leave to do so by a coordinator; if such an article is nominated without asking for leave, a coordinator will decide whether to remove it. A coordinator may exempt from this restriction an archived nomination that attracted no (or minimal) feedback.

Nominations in urgent need of review are listed here. To contact the FAC coordinators, please leave a message on the FAC talk page, or use the {{@FAC}} notification template elsewhere.

A bot will update the article talk page after the article is promoted or the nomination archived; the delay in bot processing can range from minutes to several days, and the {{FAC}} template should remain on the talk page until the bot updates {{Article history}}.

Table of ContentsThis page: Purge cache

Featured content:

Featured article candidates (FAC)

Featured article review (FAR)

Today's featured article (TFA):

Featured article tools:


How to nominate an article

Nomination procedure

  1. Before nominating an article, ensure that it meets all of the FA criteria and that peer reviews are closed and archived. The featured article toolbox (at right) can help you check some of the criteria.
  2. Place {{subst:FAC}} at the top of the talk page of the nominated article and save the page.
  3. From the FAC template, click on the red "initiate the nomination" link or the blue "leave comments" link. You will see pre-loaded information; leave that text. If you are unsure how to complete a nomination, please post to the FAC talk page for assistance.
  4. Below the preloaded title, complete the nomination page, sign with ~~~~, and save the page.
  5. Copy this text: {{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/name of nominated article/archiveNumber}} (substituting Number), and edit this page (i.e., the page you are reading at the moment), pasting the template at the top of the list of candidates. Replace "name of ..." with the name of your nomination. This will transclude the nomination into this page. In the event that the title of the nomination page differs from this format, use the page's title instead.

Commenting, etc

Commenting, supporting and opposing

Supporting and opposing

  • To respond to a nomination, click the "Edit" link to the right of the article nomination (not the "Edit this page" link for the whole FAC page). All editors are welcome to review nominations; see the review FAQ for an overview of the review process.
  • To support a nomination, write *'''Support''', followed by your reason(s), which should be based on a full reading of the text. If you have been a significant contributor to the article before its nomination, please indicate this. A reviewer who specializes in certain areas of the FA criteria should indicate whether the support is applicable to all of the criteria.
  • To oppose a nomination, write *'''Object''' or *'''Oppose''', followed by your reason(s). Each objection must provide a specific rationale that can be addressed. If nothing can be done in principle to address the objection, a coordinator may disregard it. References on style and grammar do not always agree; if a contributor cites support for a certain style in a standard reference work or other authoritative source, reviewers should consider accepting it. Reviewers who object are strongly encouraged to return after a few days to check whether their objection has been addressed. To withdraw the objection, strike it out (with <s> ... </s>) rather than removing it. Alternatively, reviewers may transfer lengthy, resolved commentary to the FAC archive talk page, leaving a link in a note on the FAC archive.
  • To provide constructive input on a nomination without specifically supporting or objecting, write *'''Comment''' followed by your advice.
  • For ease of editing, a reviewer who enters lengthy commentary may create a neutral fourth-level subsection, named either ==== Review by EditorX ==== or ==== Comments by EditorX ==== (do not use third-level or higher section headers). Please do not create subsections for short statements of support or opposition—for these a simple *'''Support''',*'''Oppose''', or *'''Comment''' followed by your statement of opinion, is sufficient. Please do not use a semicolon to bold a subheading; this creates accessibility problems.
  • If a nominator feels that an Oppose has been addressed, they should say so, either after the reviewer's signature, or by interspersing their responses in the list provided by the reviewer. Per talk page guidelines, nominators should not cap, alter, strike, or add graphics to comments from other editors. If a nominator finds that an opposing reviewer is not returning to the nomination page to revisit improvements, this should be noted on the nomination page, with a diff to the reviewer's talk page showing the request to reconsider.



Nominator(s): Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 23:18, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about one of the last Western Roman emperors, who was installed at the end of a long line of Ricimer's puppets (although it was Ricimer's nephew that would appoint him, given the death of Ricimer just prior). He ruled very briefly before being deposed by the Eastern Roman Empire, and subsequently was sent into the priesthood. He holds the dubious distinction of being the last Western Roman emperor to issue a law, although said law appears to have been so popular it was upheld even in areas he had no authority to issue them to. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 23:18, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review


  • "the historian Penny MacGeorge summates" - "summates" is a weird word with which I am not familiar. Could we use a less obscure word?
  • "Glycrius is known" - name spelt wrong
  • "the 6th-century Jordanes and Ennodius" - might be better as "the 6th-century wrtiers [or whatever word is appropriate] Jordanes and Ennodius"
    The main concern here is that Jordanes was a writer and Ennodius was a bishop whos notes have been very important; I've added their titles separately, I think it still makes sense.
  • "The 9th-century Theophanes" - as above
  • "The 7th-century John of Antioch" - as above
  • "Glycerius seems to have never to have attracted" - repeated words
  • "the Eastern Roman Empire, who he served" => "the Eastern Roman Empire, which he served"
  • That's what I got :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:15, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    @ChrisTheDude: All should be done, thanks! Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 16:51, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:53, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Battle of Utica (203 BC)

Nominator(s): Gog the Mild (talk) 20:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Another article from the Second Punic War. The beginning of the end for the Carthaginians, as a Roman army invades their homeland in North Africa and takes apart their army in a tricksy surprise night attack. Extensively worked on by myself, it has just passed its GAN. Hopefully you will consider it worth a look over at FAC. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support from Iazyges

Reviewed at GAN, happy to Support at FAC. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 20:22, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks Iazyges, appreciated. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:30, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest scaling up the maps and/or including a legend in the caption
  • File:Scenes_from_the_Battle_of_Zama_MET_149866.jpg needs a tag for the original work
  • File:Map_of_Rome_and_Carthage_at_the_start_of_the_Second_Punic_War_Modified.svg: see MOS:COLOUR. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:13, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Markham's storm petrel

Nominator(s): Therapyisgood (talk) 03:05, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about Markham's storm petrel, described as "one of the least known seabirds in the world". This passed GA in 2020 with a review by Dunkleosteus77 (talk · contribs). A peer review by Z1720 (talk · contribs) in 2021. Thus, I bring to you this article for FAC consideration. Thank you in advance for all those who review. I have asked for a co-nom at Wikipedia:WikiProject Birds, that is still open if you're familiar with the topic. Therapyisgood (talk) 03:05, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • What is the source of the data presented in the map? What is the base map used?
  • Also on the map, see MOS:COLOUR. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:36, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Jim

An initial query or two about referencing style. Firstly, you use sentence case for Spanish article titles, and title case for English titles, including translation of the Spanish. How does this fit with MoS? Secondly, you need to italicise binomials in article titles as well as in the text Jimfbleak - talk to me? 09:46, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • I don't think we normally link countries or continents
  • Hydrobates and Wilson's petrel are over-linked
  • large compared to other members in the genus, which also comprises small seabirds.— isn't the last clause redundant?
    • Cut, but I'm open to re-adding. I think Dunkleosteus77 emphasized that I explain terms, so that's where that might have came from. Therapyisgood (talk) 05:16, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • current practice as of 2008— How current is 2008?
  • ''Its iris is brown— need to restate subject I think, link iris, link endemic
  • Sexes are alike in terms of physical description. Its eggs are described as pure white without gloss.Its eggs doesn't have an obvious subject, the previous subjects were Sexes, Tail, and Adult male... Also, I don't think you have said that juveniles are similar to adults even in the hand
    • Added subject. Will get to the juveniles when I find a source. Therapyisgood (talk) 05:48, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      • Do you have a source for the "juveniles" statement? Therapyisgood (talk) 07:31, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
        • Yes, the BoW page linked below says There are no known morphological differences between adults and juveniles. In other species of storm-petrels, birds can be recognized in the hand using the shape of the tip of the feathers. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 08:23, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • As previously mentioned, the map needs clarification. I appreciate that at-sea map are a bit vague, and the map in Onley and Scofield bears little resemblance to that in Cornell Birds of the World, but all the more reason to be clear on your data source
  • You don't mention moult other than in passing. There isn't much to say, but Onley p 233 says that moulting adults are seen in the southern spring and early summer, moulting juveniles several months earlier
  • egg colour (white) not mentioned? In Paracas, the incubation averages 47 days (range 37-70 days, n = 28; 16) Both the male and female share incubation duties. In Paracas, incubation shifts lasted three days or less (16). No details on the breeding colonies in Chile. Should be included, if you can't source it, its in BoW Medrano, F., J. Drucker, and A. Jaramillo (2021). Markham's Storm-Petrel (Hydrobates markhami), version 2.1. In Birds of the World (T. S. Schulenberg, S. M. Billerman, and B. K. Keeney, Editors). Cornell Lab of Ornithology, Ithaca, NY, USA.
  • IUCN needs full name and link
  • an estimate by Barros et al., who estimated up to 20,875 — Are you convinced the estimate is accurate to units level? If not, needs rounding
  • birds believing they had already reached the coast— needs some qualification unless inter-species telepathy was involved
  • a large amount of juveniles—large number
  • ''En Peligro de Extinción should this be italicised? Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:21, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

12:01, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

  • I think that the only other comments I'd make is that the appearance of the egg is under Description, rather than breeding, which seems odd, and that BoW gives the mean egg size as 32.2 x 24.2 mm (n = 155; 16). Jimfbleak - talk to me? 09:16, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Death of Kevin Gately

Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 17:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Kevin Gately was a student on his first anti-racism rally; he died that day, but no-one witnessed exactly how that happened. The tragedy of his death an interesting piece of London history and sits in counterpoint to the death of Blair Peach. Any comments are welcome. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 17:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • File:Kevin-Gately-in-Red-Lion-Square-1974.jpg is missing a fair-use tag. This is described as a press photo - any idea which organization or agency?
  • File:Map_of_Red_Lion_Square_disorders,_showing_key_points_of_interest.png: see MOS:COLOUR
  • File:Leslie_Scarman.jpg: source link is dead. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks Nikki – you’re always so quick on picking these up, and it’s greatly appreciated.
  • Alt text added
  • Gatley: I’ll have to do some digging on this
  • No, unfortunately there's no credit given. The picture appeared in several regional newspapers at the time, but there was no photo credit I could see on any of them. FUR tweaked - SchroCat (talk) 11:12, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I think the map is probably OK (although if you see any problems, please let me know), so is the caption the only issue you see?
  • Caption is the main problem, although if the route label for the counterprotest were moved to the top right I think that would be clearer. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:43, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • OK, I've enlarged the caption - de-emphasising the colour aspect: does that look OK now? I've requested a new map at the graphics lab, so hopefully there will be something better along in a while. - SchroCat (talk) 11:12, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Replaced the link with the current one.
Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 21:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hi Nikkimaria, I think I've covered all these, but please let me know if I need to do some more work on them. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 11:12, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Source and citation review by Dugan Murphy: Pass

Will do in a bit. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:03, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • The publication year for "News Reports" is formatted differently that its neighbors in the sources list. I think that is because it is lacking an author parameter.
  • Same for "South Place Ethical Society".
  • Same for "500 students march as Kevin Gately is buried".
  • Same for "Meeting Room 2 renamed 'The Kevin Gately Room'"
  • Same for "Kevin Gately"
  • For all these, there is no listed author, so the sfn template puts them into a different, but still correct, format. I’ve added the |author=<!--not stated--> parameter for the sake of completeness, but it doesn’t affect the format.
  • Fairhall uses "1974a" instead of "1974". Is that necessary?
  • It was when I was writing, but I took out the 1974b ref - now tidied. - SchroCat (talk) 07:52, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I’m not sure that’s of much use - it won’t help the reader understand much around the subject. I’ve not linked any of the other publishers on the same basis. - SchroCat (talk) 08:06, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I notice you use the sfnref "'Kevin Gately'. Ancestry", but the source listing doesn't mention, which I'm assuming the use of that word is referring to. If that's how you accessed the death records, I think you should add that to the source listing.

The listed books are all held at academic libraries, which tells me they're reliable. The journals all seem legit. Websites look reliable. The Hansard transcripts certainly are. The death index also looks legit. Aside from the date issues I brought up in my first 6 comments, this list of sources is formatted consistently. So neat and tidy! The inline citations also seem appropriately and consistently formatted. Overall, well done. Dugan Murphy (talk) 00:28, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Dugan Murphy, many thanks for your comments here. I’ve tweaked the refs or commented above to explain. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 08:06, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Looks good. I believe you have adequately addressed and responded to all my comments.
If you are able, I would appreciate another set of eyes on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Logan (novel)/archive1.Dugan Murphy (talk) 13:33, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support from Harry

I went over this in detail at the PR and everything I picked up was addressed. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:56, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Thanks, Harry, for your comments there and here - they're much appreciated. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 13:33, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Jim

I remember Blair Peach, don't remember this one though, despite being a London leftie in the early 1970s. Very interesting. Just jotting as I read through... Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:37, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • In total during the day were 711 foot-police and 25 mounted police;[27] with additional support, traffic and CID officers, there were 923 police deployed to marshal the two marches— Not sure about this. Either end sentence at ...mounted police or insert "from" or including" after support
  • Because of his height, his was caught—"he"
  • Liberation march—still having their open-air meeting in the square—and the National Front march—not sure last word is needed

Burhanuddin Harahap

Nominator(s): Juxlos (talk) 04:28, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Burhanuddin Harahap was Indonesia's 9th (probably, depending on when you start counting) Prime Minister, serving for seven months or thereabouts, including during Indonesia's first election in 1955. Until Abdurrahman Wahid in 2001, no Indonesian head of government would come from an Islamic Party after Harahap. Mostly known to Indonesians through a sentence or two in history textbooks. Article was promoted to GA in August 2022, and was featured in "On this day" the following month. Previous nomination was made before I became aware that I can only make 1 FAC at a time - can someone close it, by the way? Juxlos (talk) 04:28, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

The one issue I'm seeing is File:Election Pamphlet of Masyumi 1955 election.jpg, which would be public domain under a different tag if the author of the illustration is not known. In most cases works by a political party are not considered government works. (t · c) buidhe 04:06, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

John Manners (cricketer)

Nominator(s): StickyWicket (talk) 12:47, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I got this article to GA class in April 2020 and decided, with some time on my hands in the next few months, to see if it could reach FA status. I have previously listed this for a peer review, but had no input, but I did list it on the cricket project talk page for feedback, which was received and actioned. John Manners was a Royal Navy officer and first-class cricketer, most notable for being the oldest living first-class cricketer ever, until his death in 2020 aged 105. All told, his life was a fascinating one! Looking forward to hearing what comments people have. StickyWicket (talk) 12:47, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Coordinator note

Hi StickyWicket, just noting that as a first time nominator at FAC, this article will need to pass a source to text integrity spot check to be considered for promotion. Good luck with the nomination. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:01, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review


  • "With his first-class career further interrupted by the war, Manners returned to first-class cricket in 1947" - maybe just say "With his career further interrupted by the war, Manners returned to first-class cricket in 1947" to avoid repetition?
  • "after securing a shore based position" => "after securing a shore-based position"
  • "thus narrowly falling short of becoming the first Hampshire batsman to make a century on their first-class debut" - was the miss really "narrow"? It's not like he scored 98 or 99.....
  • "Prior to the United Kingdom's declaration of war on Germany in September 1939, Manners had been saving his leave in order to have a full summer playing county cricket in 1940, but the subsequent declaration would mean it would be more than ten years before he played first-class cricket again" - this contradicts the lead, which says he played first class cricket in 1947, only eight years after war broke out.
    • Fixed. I have clarified that Manners last played first-class cricket prior to the war in 1936, with his next first-class appearance coming in 1947. StickyWicket (talk) 22:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Manners was recalled back to Britain" => "Manners was recalled to Britain"
  • "Six months later, with Eglinton based at Harwich, Manner's and his wife" - shouldn't have an apostrophe in his name
  • "although unscathed, four other occupants of the house were killed" => "although they were unscathed, four other occupants of the house were killed" (existing wording indicated that the four people killed were also unscathed)
    • Fixed, thanks for pointing that out, definitely does read that way looking at it again! StickyWicket (talk) 22:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "a third depth-charge set to “deep”, which caused a prolonged explosion and brought more oil to the surface" - first part has no verb. Maybe reword to "a third depth-charge set to “deep” caused a prolonged explosion and brought more oil to the surface"
  • "where he received the German surrender there" => "where he received the German surrender" ("there" was redundant to "where")
  • "Manners entertained himself by playing in cricket matches against Sydney's leading public schools" - do we know who he played for? Currently it almost reads like he was playing "1 vs 11 matches"......
    • I've had a trawl through Trove and couldn't find any coverage of his cricket while stationed in Sydney, there's normally basic scorecard coverage from club matches around that time, but nothing. Seems the matches were not covered by the local press. So just his Daily Telegraph obituary and memoirs by Yardley-Latham to go by there. StickyWicket (talk) 22:36, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
      • How about "Manners entertained himself by playing in cricket matches involving Sydney's leading public schools"? Removes the slight implication that he took on an entire school XI by himself..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:35, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "in a first-class match apiece for each" => "in a first-class match apiece" (again "for each" is redundant to "apiece", which means the same thing)
  • "who Manners would visit each Christmas" => "whom Manners would visit each Christmas"
    • Done. 22:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
  • That's what I got :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:50, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Marriage License

Nominator(s): Guerillero Parlez Moi

Marriage License is a painting that pushes on the standard assumptions about the limits of art and who it is for. You are more likely to see it on the walls of a midwestern grandmother's house rather than at MOMA. The man or woman on the street would call this painting art without skipping a beat, but art historians and philosophers of art would be more likely to disagree. To add a curve ball, MAD Magazine, yes that MAD Magazine, published a parody of the painting in 2004 that accurately predicted how the winds would shift on LGBTQ rights in American Culture.

Thank you to Ceoil, Premeditated Chaos and P-Makoto for your reviews. I think that the article now meets the standards to be an FA. --In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 07:43, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • "using residents form the town" - there's a typo in there
  • "reference photos taken of Stockbridge, Massachusetts native Joan Lahart, her fiancé Francis Mahoney, a retired NBA player, and local shopkeeper Jason Braman" - this could be interpreted as referring to four different people, is there a way to re-word?
  • "Since its appearance on the The Saturday Evening Post" - repeated "the"
  • "It has been compared to the works of Johannes Vermeer due to Rockwell's use of light and dark by commentators" => "It has been compared by commentators to the works of Johannes Vermeer due to Rockwell's use of light and dark"
  • "After some prodding, Moe agreed to pose for Rockwell" => "After some prodding, Mahoney agreed to pose for Rockwell" (per MOS:SURNAME)
  • "Rockwell drew on both Johannes Vermeer c. 1657–58 The Little Street" - this is a bit weird. I think "Rockwell drew on both The Little Street, painted by Johannes Vermeer c. 1657–58," would work better
  • "The older man in a bowtie sits behind the desk sits looking bored" => "An older man in a bowtie sits behind the desk sits looking bored"
  • "with cat on the floor" => "with a cat on the floor"
  • "one of Rockwell's "most successful canvases,"" - comma should be outside the quote marks (unless this is an American usage with which I am not familiar)
  • "have compared Marriage License and the painting" - huh? Marriage License is the painting.....?
  • "In 2004, as a response to the Goodridge v. Department of Public Health" - add a few words to clarify what this actually is/was
  • "The yellow dress of the woman in the original painting was paralleled" - as previous sentence used present tense I think this one should too
  • "in deciding which marriages as valid" => "in deciding which marriages are valid"
  • External links section is completely empty so can be removed -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:57, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:50, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Reserving a spot. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 21:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Dibsing. ♠PMC(talk) 01:15, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]



  • File:Marriage-License.jpg: 1.) "n.a." is generally insufficient for fair use rationals. Once you add a rational I would suggest adding the |image has rationale=yes parameter to the template. 2.) The file could use a talkpage. Use Wikiproject Art or whatever the relevant project is.
    Fixed in part. I do not see any value to wiki project tagging files and it is not required under the MOS --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • In 2004, Mad magazine released If Norman Rockwell Depicted the 21st Century a parody of Marriage License by Richard Williams.In 2004, Mad magazine released If Norman Rockwell Depicted the 21st Century, a parody of Marriage License, by Richard Williams.
    Fixed --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Rockwell often use locals as models for his later paintings: Marriage License's three main figures - the young couple and the older man - hyphens should be ndashes.
    Fixed --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • can you link wingtips anywhere?
    Fixed --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The inflation figures need Template:Inflation/fn
    Fixed in part. I pulled in the post-1800 cite web rather than the full data series --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • An bored looking middle aged man typo.
    Fixed --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • 1657–58 should be 1657–1658 per MOS:DATERANGE
    Fixed in the image description and removed from the text. It doesn't flow for me --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Finch, Christopher (2013). Norman Rockwell's : space after "Rockwell's"
    Fixed --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • No location on ref 10, but locations on other refs.
    Fixed --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I haven't checked, but if the very first comments I made apply to the 2012 file, apply the changes as well.
    Fixed --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • June 11, 1955, edition no need for second comma. Therapyisgood (talk) 03:39, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Fixed --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The parody stays close to the source material but with the cast iron stove replaced by a photocopier, the spittoon becoming a trash can, and a pair of gay men signing their marriage license. I believe the date is also different but there's no explanation for this in the text. Therapyisgood (talk) 03:52, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    None of the sources mention the date change. The painting was in the February 2004 edition of MAD, so I have no idea where the date in June comes from --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:13, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support pending image and source review. If you could get someone with experience in Art to comment that would be great too, perhaps there's something I'm missing. Therapyisgood (talk) 05:04, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Commission and models
  • "puffed sleeves for Joan and a "light blue shirt and wingtips" for Moe": I think we're far enough away from the sister that we can go with Lahart and Mahoney here
    Done --Guerillero Parlez Moi 19:55, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Popular-art historian": I've never seen this hyphenated before, and I'm guessing you're trying to avoid him looking like an art historian who is popular? "Popular culture historian" gets away from the issue with the blue link, particularly as Finch comments on pop culture, rather than just pop art (or "Historian of popular art/culture" would also suffice – as long as the hyphen is removed)
    You are correct with what the hyphen is trying to do. I went with the link. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 19:55, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Deborah Solomon, Dave Ferman of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram": " Deborah Solomon and Dave Ferman of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram" – a comma shouldn't replace the conjunction
    The three people are "Deborah Solomon, Dave Ferman of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, and philosopher of art Marcia Muelder Eaton". I will think about how to replace it. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 19:55, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Gotcha, OK. I'm not sure why not just "Deborah Solomon and Dave Ferman of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, and philosopher of art Marcia Muelder Eaton": doesn't that work as well - or am I missing something? - SchroCat (talk) 20:04, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • " As a well known Rockwell": two issues here: 1. Well-known should be hyphenated; 2. "a well-known Rockwell picture/painting".
    Done --Guerillero Parlez Moi 19:55, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Overall it feels a bit 'thin', both in terms of scope and depth.

  • I would like to see details of the medium, size, current location (including any history of the provenance), themes, time it took to paint, examination of the techniques used (if there was anything 'special' he did), details of major exhibitions in which it was shown, etc
  • Christopher Finch's Norman Rockwell's America has some good description of the work and discusses (albeit briefly) the theme of young love, and there seems to be a lack of academic studies on the piece. I'm not an expert by any means, so don't know the literature around Rockwell or his works, but the article seems to be very thin on these sources.
    • I got it on and I will see what I can find. I think I skipped over Finch's other works after looking at one due to thinking that they all had roughly the same material.

      If you can forgive me for editorializing, I have some thoughts on this subject after working on this project for the last few months. Art history has a Rockwell problem where they see his paintings as not real art and therefore not worthy of study. I wish Eaton was writing today and therefore took a more intersectional approach because she spends paragraphs actively dodging the reason home economics is more comfortable with Rockwell than art history: class. I will do more digging, but I feel like I have hit a dead end. --In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 12:43, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

      • No problem. I'm not an art expert even in the widest sense, let alone when considering Rockwell. There is a tiny bit in The Faith of America by Fred Bauer (he says Rockwell "struggled" for 33 days to finish the painting) which should be considered for inclusion. If the scholars and academics have overlooked Rockwell and there isn't much in-depth analysis, then that's fine (and more fool them). - SchroCat (talk) 13:04, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I hope this all help. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 09:31, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Red-throated wryneck

Nominator(s): Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:19, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Father Christmas bought me The Wryneck for Christmas, which inspired me to return here after a long absence. Wrynecks are two species of Old World woodpeckers that don't act much like woodpeckers, spending most of their time eating ants. I've picked the African version to submit here. Thanks to Aa77zz and Doc Taxon for help with a couple of other sources Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:19, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


I made a few minor MOS tweaks here you should probably check to make sure I haven't done anything you disagree with – feel free to change anything you wish.

Is there no picture of a J. r. aequatorialis, for comparison with the other two??

  • "by the IUCN". As this is a little-known organisation, I think full naming in the lead would best.
  • Link "coverts" for those of us who don't know all the nomenclature?
  • Again I think it's best to full name the IUCN

That's the lot – very little to pick up on here. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 13:42, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • SchroCat thanks for looking. Changes made as suggested. Although there are more than 40 images on commons, all but the solitary Ethiopian bird are from South Africa, no J. r. pulchricollisJimfbleak - talk to me? 07:41, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


The article looks in good shape and I can't find much to quibble about. I don't have Gorman 2014 or Gorman 2022 (or Birds of Africa Vol 3). Here are some comments.

  • Consider citing Wagler 1830 when his description is first mentioned.


  • "as a displacement activity" – true to source but this strikes me as very odd way to describe the behaviour of a bird.


  • "They measure 22 mm × 20 mm (0.87 in × 0.79 in) and weigh about 3.4 g (0.12 oz)." This is incorrect – the eggs are certainly more elongated than this. The cited source, BOW, has: "size 20·5–23·5 mm × 15·5–17·5 mm, mass 3 (7)–3·5 g (6)". Taking the mid points of the ranges gives 22 x 16.5 mm with a weight of 3.25g. (There is a published formula to calculate the weight of an egg in grams (0.51 x L x B^2) where L and B are in cms. This gives 3.05 g ) I notice that Tarboton (p 107) describes the eggs as cream coloured rather than white (but pale cream and white are very similar). The eggs of J. torquilla are described as white in BWP (They are slight smaller at 21 x 15mm).
  • Not sure what happened there, I've changed and stuck with the mean rather than the formula. As a bit of OR, I think even the Eurasian eggs are more cream/ivory than chalky white, so I've changed to the catch-all "creamy white" Jimfbleak - talk to me? 09:25, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'll continue looking and may post more comments later. - Aa77zz (talk) 14:23, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • The article claims that both the nominate race and pulchricollis are found in "southern Sudan". From the range map I think this should be South Sudan (since 2011). It is unlikely that there are two subspecies in South Sudan (they cannot be sympatric) and from the text of Cornell BOW it appears that only pulchricollis occurs there. - Aa77zz (talk) 15:15, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "The typical generation length is 3.5 years.[1]" – where [1] is the IUCN. The IUCN doesn't provide a source for this number or explain how it was calculated – it would presumably require a long-term study – which are rare for African birds. The IUCN is not a suitable source for this type of information. (I notice that the IUCN also gives 3.5 years as the "Generation length" of the Eurasian wryneck).
  • "Fossil wrynecks are known from Europe in the Pleistocene, between 2.6 million and 11,700 years ago.[3]". Fossils are problematic and I usually steer clear of them. They are usually very fragmentary and there is often considerable uncertainty in their age and in how they relate to extant species. Nevertheless, you might consider mentioning the fossil described in De Pietri et al 2011 or perhaps just the date. A comprehensive phylogeny of the woodpecker family by Shakya et al. 2017 used the date of 22.5Mya for the split of Jynx from the rest of the Picidae to calibrate their phylogeny (p. 185): "We also applied two other calibration points: 22.5 Ma from the fossil Piculoides saulcetensis representing the split between Jynx from the rest of the Picidae (De Pietri et al., 2011);.." The De Pietri fossil consists only of "the distal end of a tarsometatarsus". The references are (I think both are open access):
    Shakya, S.B.; Fuchs, J.; Pons, J.-M.; Sheldon, F.H. (2017). "Tapping the woodpecker tree for evolutionary insight". Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution. 116: 182–191. doi:10.1016/j.ympev.2017.09.005.
    De Pietri, V.L.; Manegold, A.; Costeur, L.; Mayr, G. (2011). "A new species of woodpecker (Aves; Picidae) from the early Miocene of Saulcet (Allier, France)". Swiss Journal of Palaeontology. 130 (2): 307–314. doi:10.1007/s13358-011-0021-8..

- Aa77zz (talk) 12:32, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Aa77zz I've incorporated those refs, for which thanks. I'm not completely convinced that what I've written makes sense though Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:38, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Consider mentioning alternate common names in the Taxonomy and etymology section so that you can remove the cite from the lead. I've just looked at the use of common names. The HBW book article and BOW use "rufous-necked wryneck", the Helm guides (East and West Africa) both use "red-throated wryneck". BOW haven't implemented redirects - "red-throated wryneck" is not found. Note that articles in HBW usually list alternate common names.

Support – another excellent article from Jim. - Aa77zz (talk) 10:50, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Aa77zz Thanks for your help and support, I've moved the ref as suggested. I couldn't find any other common variations beyond those used by Gorman 2014. The original article had another variation that wasn't actually listed in its source (the Gorman book with another publisher} Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:14, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Frilled lizard

Nominator(s): LittleJerry (talk) 00:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about arguably the most recognizable lizard in the world. I used a fair amount of scientific peer reviewed articles that cover nearly all the most important facts about the species. It has gone through a good article review which included a spotcheck and image review. I think we're almost there. LittleJerry (talk) 00:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • Don't use fixed px size
I have to for the cladogram. Otherwise the images will be giant. LittleJerry (talk) 13:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Chlamydosaurus_kingii_engraving_by_Mr._Curtis_1827.jpg needs a US tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:22, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done. LittleJerry (talk) 13:08, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Jim

  • Its distinctive appearance has been used in media —perhaps depicted?
  • The specific name, kingii, is a Latinised form of King's last name. —perhaps The specific name, kingii, is a Latinised form of King?
  • Grey’s cartilages —not linked or explained
  • The frill displays a variation of colours from west to east —perhaps add across its range. I wondered momentarily why the colour depended on the lizard's orientation
  • soil draining — soil drainage?
  • do so while feeding or to escape from predatorsHunting, rather than feeding
  • The species has been featured on some coins. —bit vague, no indication even of which nation's currency
Fixed all. LittleJerry (talk) 22:27, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • "which is when spends" - missing word
  • "The species is cleared to be" - is "cleared" the right word there?
  • "analysis of the species across its range using" - using what? There seems to be at least one word missing here
  • Which variant of English is this article written in? I can see "center" (American) but also "behaviour" (British) (but also "behavior" as well)
  • "The colours of the frill varies" - the subject (colours) is plural, so the verb should be too
    • It now says "the colours of the frills varies", which is still incorrect..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:24, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:18, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Consumption of ants drops after early dry season fires but raises" => "Consumption of ants drops after early dry season fires but rises"
  • "it watches for potential prey from a tree and upon finding it, climbs down" => "it watches for potential prey from a tree and, upon finding it, climbs down"
  • "many "captive bred" lizard" => "many "captive bred" lizards"
  • "Frilled lizard may also" => "Frilled lizards may also"
  • "portrayed with a similar looking neck frill that raised when attacking" => "portrayed with a similar looking neck frill that rose when attacking"
  • Last image caption is not a complete sentence so it doesn't need a full stop -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:32, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Fixed all. LittleJerry (talk) 19:48, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support - nice one -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:33, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ayn Rand

Nominator(s): RL0919 (talk) 21:03, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It has been a few years since my last FAC, so I decided to return with a bang. This is a level-4 vital article about one of the most controversial authors of the 20th century. Rand wrote Broadway plays, Hollywood screenplays, and bestselling novels, but she is most commonly discussed today because of the ideas she championed in her later novels and nonfiction essays. She is sometimes considered a key figure in "libertarianism" or "neoliberalism" – labels she rejected or never heard of (respectively). This longtime GA article has been updated with recent scholarship about her background, impact, and academic reception, to make it ready for FAC feedback. RL0919 (talk) 21:03, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Vanamonde

I'd quite like to review this in depth, but I'm not sure I'll have the time: I'm scrambling in RL. So I'm leaving two drive-by comments, in the hope that I will revisit this later. First, I was pleasantly surprised by the extent to which scholarly work is represented in the source material; for such a contentious figure, I would have assumed that media sources would have crept in over time. On a quick read through, however, I get the impression that in many places the text mentions the existence of reviews or critique rather than summarizing their substance. I'm also a little hesitant about the structure, in particular the distribution of critical material across five sub-sections. Thanks for bringing an article this important to FAC! Vanamonde (Talk) 21:36, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for your interest, Vanamonde. Any actionable feedback to improve the article is welcomed, even if you aren't able to provide a full review. --RL0919 (talk) 23:44, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • File:Ayn_Rand_signature_1949.svg: source link is dead
  • File:Aristotle_Altemps_Inv8575.jpg needs a tag for the original work
  • File:Immanuel_Kant_(painted_portrait).jpg needs a US tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:20, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks for the quick review, Nikkimaria. I made the following changes:
  • For the signature, archive link added.
  • For the photo of the Aristotle bust, added "PD-art-70-3d" license tag.
  • For the photo of the Kant painting, changed license tag to "PD-art-old-100-expired", which includes US status.
Let me know if you spot anything further that is needed. --RL0919 (talk) 03:33, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

1998 Tour de France

Nominator(s): Zwerg Nase (talk) 09:18, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about the 85th running of the Tour de France, the most famous bicycle race in the world. It was in FA review 3 years ago and received two supports, but lack of more engagement led to the nomination stalling and being closed. I am hoping to have more success this time around. Zwerg Nase (talk) 09:18, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

John C. Young (college president)

Nominator(s): PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 05:52, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

John C. Young, the fourth president of Centre College in Danville, Kentucky, was instrumental in saving the "struggling" college; Centre's graduating class size went from two students in his first year to 43 in his last. He served as president for 27 years, longer than any other in Centre's history, before he died in office and was buried in Danville. During his life he was also a minister; he was licensed to preach in 1827 and took the pastorate of Danville's Presbyterian Church four years after coming to Centre. The popularity of his preaching led him to open a new church in Danville in 1852; he was also elected moderator of the Presbyterian Church General Assembly the next year. In addition, he is the namesake of an academic building on campus and was the father of a future Centre president.

This is my second FAC; the first, 2020 US Open (tennis), was archived after I wisely nominated it right before finals week and did not respond to several comments. I was mentored for this nomination by Hog Farm - many thanks go to him for his willingness to assist me. Details can be seen on the article talk page. I look forward to any and all feedback that reviewers can provide! PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 05:52, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Just a follow up to say that I will be happy to provide exact quotes of the Weston source (which I have with me) or the Craig source (which I should have access to again in a couple days) if anybody wants to verify those. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 22:47, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • File:John_C._Young_by_John_Sartain_(cropped).jpg needs a US tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:20, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nikkimaria I have added a tag to the Commons page detailing US copyright status. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 00:29, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
When and where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:30, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nikkimaria The source website says that it was published in the mid-19th century, though it doesn't list a specific date or a location. I can keep looking but I'm not sure what I'll be able to find. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 00:39, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The source website gives the "date" as the mid-19th century, but doesn't specify whether that date was publication or only creation. What is the earliest publication that can be confirmed? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:41, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nikkimaria I have changed the Commons licensing tag to a broader one that doesn't rely solely on publication date; I will do some more digging but at this moment I don't have an exact date or location for creation or publishing. I can reach out to Centre for more info or potentially for a different image if this one isn't suitable for these reasons. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 00:52, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That would be helpful - it isn't clear at this point that this would be PD, if publication is uncertain. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:54, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nikkimaria Not sure why I hadn't seen this yet - according to Centre's digital archives, the engraving was published in 1890 in the General Catalogue of the Centre College of Kentucky. Location of publication is listed as Danville. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 01:29, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Sorry, do you have a link to where it says that? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:33, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nikkimaria: Right, I’m sorry about that. Here’s the page I found. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 01:50, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Logan (novel)

Nominator(s): Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:23, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

An 1822 novel of sex and violence on the colonial American frontier so incoherent "it is like the raving of a bedlamite" and so emotionally intense that "You are fagged and fretted to death, long and long before you foresee the termination." Yet studded with pearls of genius that meaningfully foreshadowed successors Poe, Whitman, and Hawthorne. Just read the plot summary ... if you dare, for it makes no. Damn. Sense. Awesome, right? This nomination, if successful, will be my 7th FAC/FLC of an article I produced from scratch – the 3rd about a John Neal (writer) novel. Having applied what I've learned from past nomination reviews, I'm confident about this article's quality. I'm nevertheless looking forward to hearing what comments people have, given that these articles always improve considerably with critique. Thank you in advance for your time! Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:23, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

  • Colonial Virginia frontier" I'm not quite sure what this is supposed to convey to the reader in terms of location.
Reworded. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Can some of the repeated mentions of sex and violence in the first PP be consolidated?
Done. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Logan is Neal's second novel," Consider "was"
Sure. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "provided considerable influence to future American writers" maybe "influenced later American writers"?
Done. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "The novel is considered important to scholars studying the roles of Gothic literature" Should "to" be "by"?
Yes. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "stupefies" How?
Removed. The plot summary was too long anyway. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • In real life it would be the Governor of Virginia, not Jamestown (and I believe the capital was Williamsburg by then). Is it different in the book?
Reworded to remove Jamestown. Jamestown is mentioned a little after this scene, but I realize that's not connected to this. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "royal family history" Was George Clarence royal then? This isn't made clear.
Changed to British nobility, which seems more appropriate. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Harold's father, George of Salisbury, left children in England to live as Logan among the Indigenous Mingo tribe in America." This sentence is difficult to understand.
Reworded. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Or it may be that Neal meant for this mass death scene at the novel's conclusion to symbolize the American Revolution's function of renewing this agglomeration of colonial-era American nations into US nationhood.[19]" I might simplify and simply state that the revolution helped combine the separate states into a single American nation".
Reworded. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "but then channels into a war he leads the Mingos into against the English." The double use of "into" especially when juxtaposed with "against" is a bit awkward.
Reworded. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • " can be read as a breakdown of literary constraints," possibly "disregard" for "breakdown". More generally, what I read you as saying in this passage, was that just as the American colonists had to throw off British rule to form a distinctly American government, American writers had to throw off British literary conventions to form a distinctly American literature. You could say it better than you do.
Reworded. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • " but more recently" maybe "but most recently"?
Done. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "and had worked for years on refining his theory or poetry to the point that he came to see the novel as the highest form of literature, able to communicate a poetic prose superior to formal poetry." Maybe theory of poetry was meant?
Precisely! Done. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "His next (also anonymously-published) novel after that, Randolph, includes this criticism of Logan from the protagonist: "Nobody can read it through, deliberately, as novels are to be read. You are fagged and fretted to death, long and long before you foresee the termination."[85] Two years after that," A timeframe would be good.
Done. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That's it for now. Interesting article.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:28, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you for taking the time to read it through and write out some comments. I believe they are all addressed. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:57, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Support Wehwalt (talk) 21:14, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest scaling up the Sons of Liberty illustration
I downloaded the image, cropped the border, and updated the image using "Upload a new version of this file". That went through, but the image still displays with the border. Then I tried uploading the cropped image as Boston_Tea_Party_Currier_colored_crop.jpeg, but the Upload Wizard tells me it is a duplicate of Boston Tea Party Currier colored.jpg. Do you have advice on how to proceed? Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:32, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Nevermind. Figured it out. Dugan Murphy (talk) 18:51, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Statue_of_Chief_Logan_the_Orator_(Logan,_West_Virginia).jpg: what's the copyright status of the statue?
I ended up swapping it out for File:Logan finding his murdered family LCCN2005683513.jpg. Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:32, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Boston_Tea_Party_Currier_colored.jpg needs a US tag. Ditto File:The_Pioneers_illustration_by_Darley.jpg
Both changed. Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:32, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:John_Neal_by_Sarah_Miriam_Peale,_c._1823,_oil_on_canvas_-_Portland_Museum_of_Art_-_Portland,_Maine_-_DSC04059.jpg: when is the first known publication of this image? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:23, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Funny you should ask. When we had this conversation precisely one year ago, I said that the earliest I could find it on public display is 2013. We then decided to switch the copyright tag to PD-US-unpublished. Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:32, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for reviewing the images! I believe these issues are all addressed, except scaling the Tea Party image. I'd appreciate your advice on that. Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:32, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Third-party comment: It looks like you successfully cropped out the border on the image. If you are still seeing it, it is probably a caching issue in your browser. --RL0919 (talk) 14:41, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you! You are correct. It seems that all of the image review comments are addressed. Dugan Murphy (talk) 18:51, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • "Logan is Neal's second novel," => "Logan was Neal's second novel,"
Done! Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:34, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • That's all I got on the lead. Apologies, I need to drop off now, but I will endeavour to look at the rest later today or tomorrow -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:26, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I look forward to more comments. Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:34, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Harold learns his father left behind" => "Harold learns that his father left behind"
Done. Dugan Murphy (talk) 18:41, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "when your nation was a collossus" - is that how that last word is spelt in the book? If so, I would suggest adding [sic] given that it isn't the correct spelling
That's a typo. Fixed! Dugan Murphy (talk) 18:41, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "The Logan of real life is an Indigenous leader of the Mingo people" => "The Logan of real life was an Indigenous leader of the Mingo people"
Done! Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Or it may be that Neal" - starting a sentence with "Or" does not read well, suggest changing it to "Alternatively,"
Done! Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Logan is Neal's second novel, but his first of notable success" => "Logan was Neal's second novel, but his first of notable success"
Done! Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "astonishment that the still life of the Pioneers," - title should be in italics
Done! Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "noting that Logan, along with Neal's subsequent novels Seventy-Six and Brother Jonathan are" => "noting that Logan and Neal's subsequent novels Seventy-Six and Brother Jonathan are" -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:54, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done! Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you very much for the comments! I believe they are all addressed. Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Albert Levitt

Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 15:47, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about... A must unusual but undoubtedly talented individual (though, perhaps, a bit unhinged) about whom I started this article 14 years ago as part of my research on Nixon's early elections. One can focus on the religious obsessions of his later years, or his being a perennial fringe candidate in multiple states, but still, he got a trio of degrees from Ivy League universities, married a feminist and then a wealthy widow, and got a significant Supreme Court decision named after him without either going to jail or being involved in a lengthy lawsuit. Enjoy.Wehwalt (talk) 15:47, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

SupportComments by Dugan Murphy

I'll write some out in a bit. Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:38, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • "as a young man,": you probably want a period instead of a comma.
  • Seems worthwhile to Wikilink Unitarianism in the lead and first section of the body.
  • "1,600 miles (2,600 km) trip" should be "1,600-mile (2,600 km) trip" or another wording.
  • "Chapel, in Brooklyn": comma doesn't seem necessary.
  • Is AFS Intercultural Programs and appropriate article to Wikilink when referring to Levitt's WWI service?
  • "the war in 1917": what war? I know you mean WWI, but the article doesn't make that clear.
  • "its army": French or US?
I was trying to avoid a repetition of United States or a variant and I think the sentence is clear but I've made it explicit.
  • I recommend Wikilinking Elsie Hill from the photo caption.
  • I recommend Wikilinking ROTC.
  • I recommend Wikilinking LL.B.
  • "women's activist" is a poor phrase, I think. Maybe "women's rights activist" or "women's suffragist" instead?
  • "seeking to draft": change to "drafting" or leave as-is?
  • The sentence that starts "He also consulted with future" is too cumbersome, I think. It would likely work better as two sentences.
  • If you're going to use "NWP", then you should include it in parentheses earlier, like you do for ERA.
  • Same for "PUC" later on.
  • "claimed that they had approved": I stumbled reading this, thinking "they" were the activists, but it seems "they" are Pound and Frankfurter. I recommend rephrasing to make that more clear.
  • "not now" seems awkward. Perhaps "no longer"?
  • "friends of associates": should that be "friends and associates"?
  • Wikilink Juris Doctor for J.D.?
  • ", unconventional": I'm thinking the comma would do better as a colon.
I'm inclined to leave it as is.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:30, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "at Brussels,": should be a period instead of a comma.
  • "it was suggested": who suggested it? I recommend avoiding passive voice here if you can.
It's just a paraphrase of the source. "in accordance with the suggestion made at that time that a tentative code be prepared by each delegate."
  • "state House": should both or neither words be capitalized? I'm thinking neither.
I fear there would be ambiguity, so I've deleted it. It should be clear he was filing as an independent inn the race he just lost.
  • "state Supreme Court": similar to above, I'm thinking no capitalization needed, unless using the organization's actual name.
I don't see that the article is terribly applicable or helpful to the reader.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:50, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The sentence that starts "Governor Cross refused to debate" is another cumbersome one. I recommend breaking it up.
  • "The Courant noted,": Given that the quote that follows is two complete sentences, I believe a colon would be more appropriate than a comma.
  • When referring to congressional districts, sometimes they're capitalized, sometimes not. I think they should not be. Sometimes the numbers are spelled out and sometimes they are not. You should make that consistent in either form.
  • "Federal employees": no need to capitalize. Same with "Federal judges".
Done except for one direct quote.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:50, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Citation 55's formatting is messed up.
What's wrong with it?--Wehwalt (talk) 15:50, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Looks like it was fixed with this edit. Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:37, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Never heard "Interior Department" before. I've always seen "Department of the Interior". I recommend switching.
  • The sentence that starts "When Cramer was nominated" is way too much. I recommend splitting it up.
  • "Cummings'" should be "Cummings's" per MOS:'S
  • "Black had been elected for a six-year term beginning in 1933": it took me a while of wondering how he was elected to the supreme court before I realized this refers to his senate seat. I recommend rewording.
  • "as Van Devanter, as a retired justice": seems like too many ases.
  • The sentence that starts "That day, while the court sat" is way too long and has way too many commas. I recommend splitting it up and removing the need for so many commas.
  • Seems appropriate to Wikilink Union Party (United States).
  • I'm confused by the sentence that starts "Although Levitt was defeated". How is the Union Party's choice of a gubernatorial candidate connected to Levitt's loss in the probate judge race? I'm also unclear on the vote count math that in Cross's loss. I recommend rewording.
I've rephrased. Baldwin was on the ballot twice, as a Republican and as a Unionist. The combined total elected him, but he needed the Union Party votes to outpoll Cross. Levitt had successfully sued to get the Union Party on the ballot. I can't say with certainty that Levitt's lawsuit elected Baldwin, because those who voted for him on the Union Party ticket might have voted for him anyway but there was certainly the appearance of being a kingmaker.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:26, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The references to Great Britain should be changed to the UK. Great Britain is the island and UK is the country.
I've changed to Britain. Will that do?--Wehwalt (talk) 16:26, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done down to here.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:04, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I recommend adding a word here: "with the others in the Republican primary [being] cross-filing Democrats"
  • "Anti-Communist" is capitalized, but "communist" is not. I think both should not be capitalized.
  • I recommend changing "per cent" to "percent" given the article's use of American English.
  • "Army" is capitalized in the lead, but I think it shouldn't be, unless spelled out as "US Army" or something like that.
  • Infobox: doesn't list French ambulance service. Should it?
While the ambulance service was under the command of the French Army, I don't believe he had formally enlisted in military service. We do not list military service in the infobox for Ernest Hemingway, who served in Italy under similar circumstances.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:42, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The number of citations to primary (albeit WP:INDEPENDENT) source newspaper articles looked alarming to me when I first skimmed the article. Reading through it, I didn't find any use of those primary sources that clearly conflicts with WP:PRIMARY. As far as comprehensiveness is concerned, do you think there is any scholarship you're missing here that could add some analysis to this article? There is plenty of factual detail about the doings of his life, but given the reliance on primary sources, little analysis about the impact he had or his place in history. I'm also tempted to say that there's WP:EXCESSDETAIL in this article, which plays out in a lot of play-by-play of events in Levitt's life. Do you see opportunities for summarizing more? I think the lead is an appropriate summary of the article, but to me is really wanting of some analysis, which the body doesn't have, unfortunately.

Regarding the amount of detail, the article goes into greater detail in a few portions: The description of Levitt's involvement with the ERA, something that is mentioned by multiple secondary sources on the ERA. The Connecticut battles of the early 1930s, which is where he seems to have made his mark during his lifetime as it was mentioned in most versions of his obituaries that were longer than a paragraph. The judgeship: there was more of a battle over his appointment than I spend time. African-Americans wanted one of their own, given the racial makeup of the VIrgin Islands. There's a JSTOR article I have that says John Nance Garner, the VPOTUS, wanted a Texan and thought Levitt was African-American, which he didn't want. I didn't want to spend the time on it, especially as it wasn't clear why the choice fell on Levitt.
The other area where I dwell a bit is the 1950 Senate campaign. In my view, that's worth spending time on, both because the intersection with a future president, Nixon, makes it noteworthy, and because it adds to Wikipedia's existing quality writing on the 1950 Senate election, which is a FA.
The scholarship on Levitt is minimal. As I said, there's some on the ERA. There's some on his Virgin Islands judgeship, both the source I mentioned above and the ones we use in the article. There's law review commentary on Ex parte Levitt, which is a significant case in the law of standing, but it doesn't get into him as a person. It's a fair question. I like to write an assessment section to round off an article. But here, the material to work with just isn't there.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:58, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This is a nice, straightforward article in an appropriately encyclopedic voice that is mostly clear and understandable. And what a figure! Dugan Murphy (talk) 06:34, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Many thanks. I think I've gotten to or responded to everything.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:42, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I approve your responses to all the issues I raised, including the items you kept the same. I am inclined to agree with your defense of the article's level of detail. Such is the fate of biographies of really busy people with long lives, especially when they're involved in events that require explanation for the average reader to understand. It's really too bad there isn't more scholarship on this interesting and impactful life, so we'll live with the lack of analysis. FYI: I just noticed inconsistent use of US/U.S., so I changed instances of the former to match the latter. Having done that myself, I am inclined to support this nomination on all the FA criteria but the images and sources, neither of which I looked at, though at a glance, the sources look fine. Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:37, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • File:Miss_Elsie_M._Hill,_152005v.jpg needs a US tag, and what is the author's date of death?
Replaced with another image and the tag does not go to date of death.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Levitt_for_Congress_1958.jpeg is tagged as lacking description. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:25, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I've fixed that image description. Thank you for the image review.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Putting down a marker... - SchroCat (talk) 20:37, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've heard of 'never the bridesmaid, never the bride', but this guy takes the prize on it!

  • A brief aside, but I'm trying out the new Vector skin for a bit – without the TOC between lead and first section, it does push infoboxes quite far down the articles. This one reaches to part way through the Harvard and the ERA section on my screen (although that will vary on a myriad of grounds for others). There's nothing to do about it, but its lucky the photo of Elsie Hill is not pushed out of her section altogether.
  • "minister, attorney, and government official" uses a serial comma, "Connecticut, California and New Hampshire" doesn't. Whichever you choose should be consistent
Harvard and the ERA
  • "Dean Pound was willing": Just "Pound", rather than the title?
Roving professor
  • "receiving his J.D.": I had to use the blue link to find out what a JD was – maybe a couple of words to help?
I've made it clear he was going to law school.
Judge (1935–1936)
  • "President Roosevelt": Just "Roosevelt"?
1950 Senate primary
  • Nixon "had in fact been responsible for aiding the Communist Party": while I presume there was little or no basis for this, I think you may need to give a detail or two on exactly why Levitt thought that?
The source spares us his reasoning. However, it seems consistent with his other bêtes noires, such as his commentary on McCarthy, that in attacking the communists, they were in fact aiding them.
Perennial candidate
  • "Albert Levitt gave an address": just "Levitt"?
Well, now you have two Levitts and Lilla said she was from Frederick, Maryland.
  • You don't link "vice president" (nor "president", above): I presume this is deliberate, but I'll raise the question in case it's an oversight
Yes, seems to me a low probability click, that in looking at what is certainly not a basic-level article on American law and politics, that a link to those offices would be necessary for the reader.
  • "He continued to warn against the "subversive" political activities of the Catholic Church."[125]" There's an extra quote mark here

That's the lot from me; he seems an eccentric sort, forever tilting at windmills! Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 12:14, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Indeed. Levitt is, quite possibly, an epitome of misguided talent. Thanks for the comments.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:23, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Support All good - either in your edits, or your reasons for not picking up on the suggestions. Nice piece on someone I'd never heard of before. (Caveat: I have no knowledge on the subject, so this is a review only of the prose, and not of the completeness or reliability of the sources used.) Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 16:32, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Could Levitt's political party affiliation be inserted in the infobox? Seeming that he ran multiple times for Congress, and that he was both a Democrat and Republican, it seems important enough to be included to me. -- Politicsfan4 (talk) 04:06, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've added that. Thanks.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:27, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comment by WhatamIdoing

I think there should be a link to Anti-Catholicism in the United States somewhere in this article. It's a little weird to read about an anti-Catholic US politician without mentioning the broader subject.

I've piped it.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:27, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Also, I wonder whether he really opposed "the Vatican" (the city–state) per se, or if this is a sort of rhetorical metonymy. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:39, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Alexis Soyer

Nominator(s): Tim riley talk 18:19, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Having been party (with SchroCat) to getting the English food writers Elizabeth David and Jane Grigson to FA, I now present for scrutiny a French chef, who made his career in London. He was an adventurous fellow, and eventually died, young, having picked up at least one horrible disease when helping Florence Nightingale improve the conditions of British troops in the Crimean War. Before that, he revolutionised kitchen design, transforming smoky hell-holes into healthier working spaces. He also did his bit to alleviate the Irish potato famine. Quite a lad! I hope I have done him justice. I'm grateful to Chiswick Chap for a most helpful review at GAN, and I offer the article for consideration here. Tim riley talk 18:19, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by Unlimitedlead

Hey, Tim. I'll begin this review over the next few days. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:39, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • The Manual of Style (WP:OVERLINK section) tells us not to link countries, capital cities, or everyday words and phrases. Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Many of the aforementioned missing links likewise do not appear in the article either.
  • Please briefly mention Florence Nightingale in the lead before name-dropping her. Sadly, the only reason I even know who that is is the American sitcom Austin & Ally.
  • "Emery Soyer and his wife, who are thought to have been Protestants..." Though by whom? Historians?
  • As far I know, by everyone who has written about the subject. Some state it unequivocally; other less so, and I have drafted in the light of that. Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "...his association with the fallen Bourbon elite made him..." The House of Bourbon was a royal house, so maybe "elite" isn't the most appropriate word to use here.
  • Being king or one of his ministers seems pretty élite to me. Happy to replace it with a better alternative if you can suggest one Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It just occurred to me: maybe aristocracy?
That is fine, and now adopted. Tim riley talk 20:07, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The Early years section says that "[Soyer's] career in Paris was halted by the July Revolution in 1830", but the London section goes on to say "By the time of the 1830 revolution in France, Philippe Soyer had been living and working in London for several years". I don't know if it's just me, but these sentences sound like they contradict each other. How can Soyer's career in Paris be influenced by the 1830 revolution if he had been living in London for years before 1830?
  • The article is about Alexis Soyer. It was, as we state, Philippe Soyer − whom we have met two paragraphs earlier − who was living in London in 1830. Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The paragraph beginning with "The kitchen used a variety of fuels: coal, charcoal, and gas..." could use a lot of hyperlinks.
  • WP:OVERLINK applies here. I can't believe any reader will need to be told what coal or gas is. I've linked charcoal, just in case the word is unfamiliar to any reader of the article. Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Afterthought: your raising the point prompted me to look elsewhere in the article, and I have added links to three culinary terms with which some may be unfamiliar: whitebait, lark and truffle. Thank you for raising the point in general. Tim riley talk 18:44, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Probably OK and not a violation of WP:OVERLINK − so done. Perhaps other reviewers would be kind enough to give a view on this, though. 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
  • The phrase "and to give up alcohol, of which he had long been a devotee" sounds awkward. Perhaps "devotee" is not the best word to use here.
  • I struggled with this when drafting, and will happily substitute a better wording if you can suggest one. From the sources, he clearly liked a glass or two, but to what extent is not clear. Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Maybe "partaker"? This won't affect my decision to support, however. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:32, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Unlimitedlead (talk) 14:25, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you for your comments. Much appreciated. Tim riley talk 18:22, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly, Tim; I enjoyed this light read. I'll go ahead and support this nomination. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:34, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you for your review and now for your support. I enjoyed writing the article and I'm delighted you enjoyed reading it. Tim riley talk 19:49, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • File:Alexis-Soyer-by-Emma-Soyer.png: how can this be dated to 1847 when the author died in 1842?
  • Good question. I can't recall where I got the April 1847 date from (I think it might be when the Reform Club acquired the picture.) Adjusted. Tim riley talk 10:15, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Emma-Soyer-self-portrait.png: when and where was this first published? Ditto File:Reform-Club-kitchens.png, File:Fanny-Cerrito-1842.png
  • Emma Soyer: No information about first publication. As both artist and engraver died more than 100 years ago I thought the "PD:old" tag would cover it. Tim riley talk 10:15, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Reform-Club-kitchens: Published as a print in 1842 in London. But again, I thought the PD:old tag was appropriate. Tim riley talk 10:15, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Fanny Cerito: No information about when and where it was first published. The artist died in 1876, and again, I took it that the life+100-year rule applied. Tim riley talk 10:15, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Soyer's-soup-kitchen.jpg: suggest using the tagging from File:Pacha-iln-banquet.jpg instead
  • Serves me right for using anything from Commons! Replaced with tagged image. Tim riley talk 10:15, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • Support I did a review offline for this pre-GAN, and the article has only strengthened since then. - SchroCat (talk) 13:54, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Thank you, SC: I have much appreciated your off-line reviews (and your rummaging for sources) for me during your Wiki-break, and am chuffed to have you back with us. − Tim riley talk 17:14, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Gog the Mild

Recusing to review.

  • "He left the Reform in 1850", Optional: give Reform Club in full.
  • Once it has been given in full it seems unidiomatic not to refer it just as the Reform, rather as having referred to, say, the Savoy Theatre, one would then just call it the Savoy, and ditto the Ritz Hotel and subsequently just the Ritz. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • " In the Crimea, Soyer was seriously ill, and never fully recovered his health." I know I am a comma minimalist, but are you sure about those two? Or at least the first.
  • I too am a comma grudger, but "In the Crimea Soyer" looks odd to me. I could lose the second comma without missing it, though. What think you? Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "persona non grata". I do not believe that this needs italics, but if it does it needs a language template.
  • I see what you mean, but our WP article italicises the term in its title and in its text, without labelling it a foreign phrase. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
WP is not a RS, and certainly not a HQ one. In my personal opinion this is not a foreign phrase, and so does not need italics. The MoS is clear: if foreign it needs a lang template; if not, it doesn't need italics.
Italics removed. The OED is clearly wrong. Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "The duke died in July". Upper case D?
  • I would prefer one, but the MoS is agin it, as far as I can work out. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "London's reigning celebrity chef." Optional: reigning is not encyclopedic; perhaps "London's most celebrated chef"?
  • "the recently-founded Reform Club". Perhaps a brief explanation of what this was/did?
  • Not a footnote, in the end, but a brief phrase in the body of the text. Tim riley talk 18:05, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Link entrée.
  • "During the Irish potato famine". Is it known when this took place?
  • Our article on the famine says from 1845 to 1852. I think the blue link suffices in the Soyer article, but will add the dates in brackets if you insist. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You will have me quoting MOS:NOFORCELINK at you.
I don't see how it could be thought to apply here, but to appease you I have added the starting date of the famine. Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Books: Langley seems out of alphabetical order.
  • I'm only seventy-one: you can't expect me to have learned a firm grasp of alphabetical order yet. Rejigged. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "passed an Act authorising". Lower-case a.
  • Are you sure? I suppose 39 years as a civil servant and then a Crown employee have coloured my usage. I'd write "an act of treachery" but "an Act of Parliament". If the MoS says otherwise I'll comply, natch. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm sure. Every specialist, in whatever area, things that their important phrases should have leading italics. (Let us not speak of Military Persons' views.) Even if you were correct, a bare "the Act" would still be incorrect.
OK. Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:41, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I look forward to it, and thanks for the comments so far. Tim riley talk 19:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "pro bono publico". A language template please.
  • the OED says it's an English phrase, and doesn't italicise it (unlike persona non grata) so I've removed the italics. Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Soyer decided that each regiment". Now, "regiment" can mean two things in the UK, and a third, different, thing in the US. That being so, when your sources say "regiment", do they mean 'battalion'? (And yes, a (British) battalion would have a "regimental" cook. Don't ask.)
  • "He was then asked to design new kitchens at Wellington Barracks, which were opened in July 1858." To me "new kitchens" implies replacement kitchens, while "which were opened" suggests they weren't. Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • They were new kitchens for an existing barracks, and were opened in 1858. Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • IMHO the quantity of quotations falls the wrong side of MOS:QUOTE. ("While quotations are an indispensable part of Wikipedia, try not to overuse them. Using too many quotes is incompatible with an encyclopedic writing style ... It is generally recommended that content be written in Wikipedia editors' own words. Consider paraphrasing quotations into plain and concise text when appropriate".) Consider some judicious trimming and/or rephrasing in your own inimitable words. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:42, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • There are very few quotations other than from press reports, which must obviously, I think, be given verbatim. "The Daily Thing said it was frightfully good" doesn't seem to me very helpful to our readers. Which of the quotes would you rewrite, and how? Tim riley talk 21:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by WhatamIdoing

Looking only at the lead: It's the normal length for a FAC, but it has about half as many links (as calculated against both the number of sentences in the lead and by the word count in the lead) as the average TFA. That's not inherently a bad thing, but I suggest that it might be something you'd like to look at. The primary point of a link isn't to give people a dictionary definition. It's to give them navigation opportunities. For example, someone reading this article about a chef might want to read about Cookery books, alternatives to bread (a red link, so I understand if now's not the time to add it), or kitchen design. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:32, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Interesting, and point taken. Thanks for raising it. I'll revisit the matter, though I am conscious of the MoS's guidance (WP:OVERLINK) not to link familiar everyday terms. Tim riley talk 13:20, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Music of Mesopotamia

Nominator(s): GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 06:33, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This is my first time at FAC. I’ll be responsive to making changes during the process, and I'll also ping @Aza24 and @Furius. Thank you! GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 06:33, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Coordinator comments

  • As the nominator is a first time FACer, the article will require a spot check for source to text fidelity.
  • Hi GuineaPigC77, can I ask if you were/are being mentored per the FAC instructions? "Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to seek the involvement of a mentor, to assist in the preparation and processing of the nomination."

Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:12, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi @Gog the Mild, I don't have a formal mentor; it seems I made a mistake. I did read that statement (including the bold part), but took away from this conversation that it was appropriate to proceed without further involvement. I benefited from a lot of mentorship from Aza24 and Furius during the preparation of the article, but it seems my mistake is that the mentorship is supposed to be both formal and also FAC-specific. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 21:41, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It's not obligatory, just strongly advised. Let's see how the nomination goes. Mentoring can definitely be informal, and does not need to be ongoing. Were they aware that you were aiming this article at FAC when they were advising you? Gog the Mild (talk) 21:50, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
We were discussing a GA goal at that time (summer / fall 2022). Since then, I haven't heard from them except for for this message. I followed Aza24's advice to proceed with the GA nomination and have pinged them a few times, but neither has participated on the talk page since mid-October. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 22:18, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Fair enough. Not a problem. FAC can be unexpectedly tough on first timers, and it helps to have a "native guide". But as I said above, let's see how it goes. In the end it's all about the article. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:43, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@GuineaPigC77: That's on me, I didn't think to check that it was your first FAC (which honestly should have occurred to me based on your questions). Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 20:50, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It would have been better if I had said so outright. I generally try to be upfront about my inexperience, but this is a case where I definitely should have highlighted it. I will do my best here. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 21:37, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@GuineaPigC77: Happy to recuse myself as a reviewer here to assist as mentor, and however else I can. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 22:09, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That would be wonderful, @Iazyges. I accept! Thanks so much for offering. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 00:46, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Driveby comment

Thank you for working so extensively on a top-level article about an ancient culture. I know all too well how difficult that is. This looks like a promising FA candidate, but I think its organization needs adjustment. "Background" is a normal section title in articles about events, but not on broad topics such as this, and well-developed articles shouldn't need "overview" sections, as the lead of the article is supposed to serve as its overview. I think each of the subsections of "overview" ("uses of music", "music education", and "musicians") can be broken out into a top-level section of its own. "Background" is more of a puzzle. The latter two subsections ("surviving works" and "surviving instruments") probably belong in a section titled "evidence", but I don't know what to do with the first section ("context"). Much of it is general information about Mesopotamian civilization that is unnecessary here, while most of the rest seems like it is summarizing information that is found later in the article, in which case it should probably be moved to the lead. A. Parrot (talk) 07:04, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks A. Parrot for your comments. Airship's mockup makes sense to me and seems to address some of your concerns. Regarding the context section, perhaps we keep the last 4 sentences of the current Context section (beginning with Much of what researchers know...) and incorporate it into the lead. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 17:02, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Phlsph7

I agree with A. Parrot that it looks promising and that something needs to be done about the sections "Background" and "Overview". For "Background", I don't think that we need the subsection "Context" since the reader can look up these details in the corresponding articles. Or keep only the details that are directly relevant to the music. The remaining section could be titled "Historical evidence" or "Surviving artifacts" and should probably be moved somewhere to the bottom of the article. The section "Overview" seems to discuss mostly the role of music in Mesopotamia society. What about renaming it to "Role in society" or something similar?

Would it make sense to have a comparison of the different Mesopotamian civilizations somewhere? For example, concerning the musical differences between Sumerian, Assyrian, Akkadian, and Babylonian civilizations? You are probably more knowledgeable about whether there are important general differences worth discussing.

I've spotted various minor issues with the prose:

  • The Mesopotamians had an elaborate system of music theory, and some level of music education.: remove comma after "theory"
  • later known known as Babylonia—where several large cities emerged: remove one "known"
  • Religion and writing help set the stage for a music culture in this region: use past tense for "help"
  • ancient city of Ugarit, modern day Syria, dating: add hyphen "modern-day"
  • divided into songs of varying length separated: use plural: "lengths"
  • but also because there was “no sweet-sounding musical instruments: replace "was" with "were"
  • The bull was then singed: is "singed" supposed to be "signed" or "sung"?
  • dance can be distinguished on wall reliefs, cylinder seals, and painted pottery, and depictions of musical instruments accompany them: remove "and" before "painted pottery". Or maybe reformulate the sentence: there are too many commas and "ands"
  • musicians in temples survive, and reveal that a large number: remove comma before "and"
  • necked instrument sitting at the back of boat in a musician's posture: add "a" before "boat"
  • they are instructions which tell a musician how he or she can change a sammû instrument's: replace "which" with "that"
  • A corpus of thousands of surviving clay tablets provide additional details about : replace "provide" with "provides"
  • time as similar instrument in Egypt, the nefer.: add "a" before "similar"
  • The text jumps between English variants. If you want to default to American English, you should change:
    • pictographic and ideographic stylisations would: "stylizations"
    • contains a catalogue of song titles organized: "catalog"
  • Most of the text uses Oxford commas but they are still missing at several locations (see WP:Oxford comma):
    • which includes artifacts, artistic depictions and written records
    • use in secular occasions included festivals, warfare and funerals
    • Nimrud, Khorsabad and Nineveh
    • Major cities of Sumer included Ur, Uruk, Larsa and Lagash
    • reading, writing, religion, the sciences, law and medicine
    • rattles, sistra, cymbals, bells and drums

Other observations:

  • WP:EARWIG shows no copyright violations
  • User:Headbomb/unreliable shows no unreliable sources
  • User:Evad37/duplinks-alt.js shows no duplicate wikilinks
  • There are no unreferenced paragraphs.
  • Some cases of WP:OVERCITE:
    • The "Hymn to Nikkal" (pictured) is considered to be the oldest surviving substantially complete written music in the world.[1][2][3][4]
    • is considered to be the oldest surviving substantially complete written music in the world.[1][2][3][4]
Thanks for your comments, Phlsph7. As for the bullet points first, I've implemented your suggested changes. The only difference: I used "singed" from the source. An alternative could be "superficially burned" or "seared". More replies coming. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 16:06, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Regarding WP:OVERCITE, I used extra citations here given that it's a hefty claim. But we could scale it back to the first two. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 17:13, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks for fast response. The "singed" makes sense to me now. You can avoid WP:OVERCITE by bundling the citations, for example, using Template:Multiref2. Phlsph7 (talk) 17:18, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Regarding a comparison of civilizations. While the source articles sometimes have a narrower scope, many of the sources speak broadly about Mesopotamian music. It could be possible to separate them by piecing together the examples offered, but I would be concerned about OR here? Another concern is that there are so many peoples mentioned here that each section would be sparse. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 17:31, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'd be very hesitant about adding a comparison of civilizations if the sources don't do it. Given how much the different groups overlapped and how limited our evidence is, I'm not sure that it makes sense to separate them off as separate traditions to be compared. Furius (talk) 23:04, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I've bundled the refs; feel free to revert, however. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 01:13, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
My main reason for bringing up the idea was that these categories play a role in the general history of Mesopotamia. But there is no point in comparing them in the article if they play no important role in the academic literature on the music. Phlsph7 (talk) 06:42, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Phlsph7: Do you have any further concerns about the article? Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 06:23, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ah, I see the contents were reorganized in the meantime. It looks better like this. Phlsph7 (talk) 15:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Short source review

I made a short source review, see below. At two points, there were minor issues with the page numbers but otherwise it looks fine.

  • The song's words are written above the double line and the music notation is below.[2]: supported by Burkholder, Grout & Palisca 2014: "The words are written above the double line, the music below". This is page 8, not page 10.
  • In some depictions of religious festivals, musicians were accompanied by dancers, jugglers, and acrobats.[5]: supported by Collon 2003, p. 99.: "Musicians, dancers, jugglers and acrobats often accompanied religious festivals. An Old Babylonian terracotta disc..."
  • Enheduanna was simultaneously a princess, priestess, and poetess who wrote a cycle of hymns to the temples of Sumer and Akkad, including devotional hymns for the gods Sin and Inanna, the texts for which survive.[24]: supported by Burkholder, Grout & Palisca 2014, p. 7.: "The earliest composer known to us by name is Enheduanna (fl. ca. 2300 b.c.e.), an Akkadian high priestess at Ur, who composed hymns (songs to a god) to the moon god Nanna and moon goddess Inanna; their texts, but not her music, survive on cuneiform tablets."
  • She authored nin-me-sar-ra, a short (153 line) poem in which she may allude to her own songwriting at a critical moment in the work.[57]: supported by Hallo & van Dijk 1968, pp. 51–52.
  • While much is known about Mesopotamian instruments, musicologist Carl Engel points out that because the main depictions of musical instruments come from bas reliefs celebrating royal and religious events, it is likely that there are many instruments, perhaps popular ones, that scholars are unaware of.[61]: supported by Engel 1864, p. 28.:"MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS OF THE ASSYRIANS...The Assyrian bas-reliefs chiefly represent historical events, religions ceremonies, and royal entertain- ments. It is therefore very probable that the Assy- rians possessed several popular musical instruments which are not represented on these bas-reliefs..."
  • This was especially true of an instrument known as a balag, whose identity is disputed[68]
  • inform the reader whether the object in question is, for example, made of wood (𒄑, giš), is a person (𒇽, lú), or is a building (𒂍, é).[65]: supported by Bowen 2019, pp. 28–32. The reference only mentiones 28-9 but I think the additional pages are needed.
  • Strings may have been made with catgut, as was done by the Egyptians, or with silk.[105]: Engel 1864, p. 30.: "The strings were perhaps made of silk, like those which the Burmese use at the present time on their harps, or they may have been catgut, which was used by the ancient Egyptians, one of whose harps thus strung, as I have already mentioned, has been ex- humed."
  • Two surviving tablets give instructions for tuning string instruments. According to Sam Mirelman, these tablets are better thought of in terms of re-tuning rather than tuning:[115] (and the following quote): supported by Mirelman & Krispijn 2009, p. 43. Should our text mention Krispijn as well since both are the authors of this paper?
    Although in the source it appears the summation comes from O. R. Gurney; I've attributed it to him and cited it to his work. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:53, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • well as drums, sistra, and cymbals.[128]: supported by Aruz & Wallenfels 2003, p. 33.

Phlsph7 (talk) 15:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Phlsph7: Believe I have addressed all issues. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:53, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
These references look good now. There is currently a cite error message displayed at the bottom of the page. It was probably introduced somewhere in the process of fixing the references.
Fixed, needed a notelist for an added note. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 10:31, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I had a look at some of the publishers. The article cites a great variety of sources and many of them are by high-quality publishers, like Oxford University Press, Cambridge University Press, Yale University Press, and Brill Publishers. However, I spotted two publishers associated with self-publishing: Trafford Publishing (Dumbrill, Richard J. (2005). The archaeomusicology of the Ancient Near East) and Vantage Press (Polin, Claire C.J. (1954). Music of the Ancient Near East). Phlsph7 (talk) 10:03, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Phlsph7: Polin, Claire C.J. (1954) was "picked up" by academic presses later (presumably after the author realized Vantage was screwing them over); so I've adjusted the date and publisher; page numbers appear the same between versions. @GuineaPigC77: Dumbrill 2005 will need to be extricated from the article, and replaced as possible; they were never carried by a reliable press later on, unfortunately. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 10:31, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done. We lost a quote and some minor phrases, but I salvaged the Hurrian hymn composers and scribes names. Thanks for catching this. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 21:39, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Phlsph7: Sourcing should be good to go now. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 05:40, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The issues pointed out have been solved. I would tend to support the nomination but with two caveats. On the one hand, it needs to pass a more thorough source spot check. This one only had a look at 10 references. On the other hand, I'm not qualified to assess whether the treatment of the topic is comprehensive. So another reviewer would have to check whether this criterion is fulfilled. If someone could ping me when these points are fulfilled then I would take a final look. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:00, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by a455bcd9

Hi, two comments:

  • What's the period covered in the article? Should it be renamed "Music of Mesopotamia (period)" or "Music of Ancient Mesopotamia"? Because today's music of Mesopotamia includes modern music of Iraq (also known as the music of Mesopotamia).
  • There's no source (and legend) for File:N-Mesopotamia and Syria english.svg.

a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 10:41, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for your comments, a455bcd9.
GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 16:35, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Airship

First impressions look good. Agree with (a.) parrot above on the section organisation; I've mocked up something in my sandbox about how I would go about it. If I were implementing it, I would trim the context section, to try to keep it music-focused; remove the top-level background and overview sections, as they don't really convey anything, and merge the surviving instruments section into the general instruments section, just for simplicity. The rest is fairly self explanatory. Greatly looking forward to your response! ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:24, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you, Airship, for your comments and mockup. It sounds like overall organization is definitely an issue, so if people like your mockup I can go ahead and restructure the article based on it. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 15:18, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm not sure that we need the section "Context" but the rest of the mock layout looks fine. I assume the content of the subsection "Surviving works" goes into the new section "Works of music". Phlsph7 (talk) 17:25, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think that it would be worth keeping "surviving instruments" as a separate sub-category of "instruments" (probably the final sub-category), because the vast majority of them come from the same cemetery. I also think that "surviving works" and "music theory" should be separate sections at the same level, since neither is obviously a sub-type of the other (but it makes sense for both of them to go after "instruments"). I agree about moving the final sentences of the "context" section, which deal specifically with music to the lead, and getting rid of the rest of the context section (actually, I think that material should be added to the lead of the History of Mesopotamia article, which is extraordinarily short). Furius (talk) 23:27, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I tweaked @AirshipJungleman29's outline based on these comments. I also moved the last 4 sentences from the Context section into the lead, and then removed Background and Context altogether. It is in my sandbox. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 10:06, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Your sandbox looks good. I'll leave you to deal with the current maelstrom, and come back with more comments later. Good luck. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:53, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Agreed. This is a better way to organize the contents and to focus on the essential information. Phlsph7 (talk) 17:05, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Okay great, I will make this change. I will address some of the other concerns first, in case others want to adjust the outline before I implement it. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 18:08, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I did the big picture shuffling of sections. I think this is more what people have in mind? Feel free to revert. Note that this edit removed the map, as it appeared in the background and context sections. If we still want to include the map, perhaps it could go in the influence section? GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 09:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Furius

I commented a little bit on this article at an earlier stage, but it's come a very long way since then and I think it is a really good piece of work now. I do have some comments, however, which I'll arrange by section. Mostly, they are very minor matters.

  • Surviving works:
  • We're missing an explicit statement about musical notation (aside from a brief comment in the caption up at the top of the article), which would build on the quotation from Dumbrill. How, broadly speaking does the system work? (this overlaps with the "musical theory" section, so would be a reason for the "surviving works" section to appear immediately before the "musical theory" section.
  • "an Akkadian language tablet" - does it have a name/number? If so it would be useful to include this (in main text or in the note).
  • This is only a suggestion: I think it would be better for the image of the Hurrian songs' tablet to appear in this section. That would open up the issue of what image should go at the top of the article, but I think either an artistic depiction of musicians or another angle of one of the Lyres of Ur could fill that gap.
  • Surviving instruments:
  • The text and image could match up better - the text emphasises the "Golden Lyre of Ur" & the "Bull Headed Lyre", while the image is of the "Great Golden Lyre / Queen's golden lyre" (can you doublecheck the name? If I'm understanding Lyres of Ur correctly, this image actually is of the Golden Lyre and the Queen's lyre is a separate object in the BM). Commons says that the image is partially a replica - it would be better to have an image of an actual artefact, but if that's not practical (I admit, this photo gives a really good idea of the shape of the thing), then the fact that it is a partial replica should be stated in the caption.
  • I don't think it is necessary to describe the "Bull Headed Lyre" as "well-known".
  • Uses of Music: Religion:
  • "Old Babylonian period" - good to give a date range (yes, user can click through, but they shouldn't have to break their flow like that).
  • "balag and shem" - should these words be italicised?
  • No one is playing Ninigizibara, correct? Might it be possible to state that a little more explicitly, if so?
  • Singed bull: I agree with the earlier comment that this is a bit confusing in context. Is the bull alive for this?
  • The second paragraph somewhat gives the impression that all religious songs were laments. Is that right? Elsewhere in the article "hymns" are mentioned.
  • Uses of Music: Secular
  • The seal in the Louvre needs a citation. Ideally that citation would include its inv. number and a link, if it is included in the Louvre's online catalogue. It is a pity that we don't have an image.
  • Were "festivals" a secular context?
  • "they both use Emesal" is confusing because a number of pairs have been mentioned in preceding sentence. Clarify, e.g. "both laments and love songs use"
  • Elam-Anían should be linked.
  • I wonder whether a bit more could be said on the use of music in the army - what was their role exactly? If the section said a little more on this topic, it would also be possible to use File:Bas_relief_Ninive_musiciens_AO_19908.jpg or File:Exhibition_I_am_Ashurbanipal_king_of_the_world,_king_of_Assyria,_British_Museum_(45973108151).jpg as an image for this section.
  • Music education
  • "Professional musicians were first... and then became eligible..."
  • Unlink "numerous settings" - not helpful.
  • " indicate that choral training occurred by 3000 BCE" -> " indicate that by 3000 BCE choral training was occurring". Perhaps too many "which"s in this sentence
  • "Some religious practices were highly specific in teaching music." - is it possible to be more specific? How does a practice teach?
  • "With Ancient Egypt" --> "Along with".
  • Need to be consistent between "edubas" & "edubbas"
  • Is there a date for the school in Mari?
  • Musicians
  • "Gala" is lower case in this section, but was capitalised in the "uses of Music" section. It is a bit awkward that information on the Gala is split between these two sections and I'd suggest moving the material on the instruments played by Gala, at least, to here.
  • "regarded highly" --> "highly regarded"
  • Repetition of "the king kept" is a little awkward. Add links for "Nineveh" "Gilgamesh" and "Assyrian army" (piped, to Military history of the Neo-Assyrian Empire). "sometimes accompanied the king to his grave" - I'd be more explicit about this. Gabbay ought to have a first name.
  • Link Enheduanna in image caption as well as main text. "Ur III" is perhaps confusing and it might be better to stick with "Third Dynasty of Ur".
  • "gala (or gala-mah)" - this is the same as the gala from the previous section? Should gala-mah be mentioned there? "He and his family-owned" remove hyphen?
  • " nin-me-sar-ra": What is this? Do we have any information on whether Enheduanna wrote the music as well as the lyrics for her hymns? If not, that might be worth stating.

Throughout, I think the article could be a little more explicit about whether terms are in Sumerian or Akkadian (e.g. "Gala" is Sumerian, but the article never actually says this; "Eduba" is Sumerian, etc). Obviously, one can't do this for every list of instruments, but for key terms, it seems worth doing. The night is no longer young, so I will stop here for now and look at the rest of the text later (possibly not for a few days, sorry!) 00:55, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments, Furius. As I implement them, I'll leave a few notes. Starting with Uses of Music: Religion.

  • Dates added
  • Instrument names italicized per source
  • Ninigizibara. I'm cautious about making any statement about who played the instrument. Bowen states that the balag "was used by the Gala-priest in the performance of Emesal prayers", but later says "the Gala-priest would recite or sing the prayer, often accompanied by instruments and other singers." The issue is further complicated by their religious belief that it played itself. (Since it is the proper name of an instrument-god, I removed the "the" in front of it, and did the same in the lead.)
  • Singed bull. I changed the sentence to “Various parts of the bull were burned with a torch during the ritual.” The source says “...More offerings were made and perfumes burnt. A torch was lighted and the bull was singed. Twelve linen cloths...” and, at the end of a lengthier description, it says, “The bull was then slain, its heart burnt, and the body skinned, wrapped in a red cloth.”
  • Hymns and laments. I generally see these words used interchangeably in this context. Bowen says "The intercessions of the Gala-priest generally took the shape of sung laments..." He also refers to Emesal prayers as "hymnic liturgies".

More replies coming. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 07:13, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Surviving works:
  • How the notation works. I think the best answer is we don’t know. West (1994) says “On many important points there is a consensus. But on others, including the interpretation of the notation, widely divergent positions have been taken up.” And goes on to say “At present we have four rival decipherments of the notation, each yielding entirely different results.” The closest our article gets to explaining any notation is under Music theory where it says “a tablet from Ugarit lists musical interval names along with two numbers, presumably referring to the two strings plucked”, sourced to Güterbock 1970.
  • I added the tablet number per Kilmer 1971
GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 07:58, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • To clarify on this point, I mean simply: how is it written? Do the Hurrian songs use cuneiform characters, separate symbols, or something else? Did they write these symbols in line with the lyrics or in a separate section? Agreed that this overlaps with music theory and could go there, but that section seems much more, well, theoretical. Furius (talk) 12:27, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Thanks for clarifying. I added some material to the discussion of the Hurrian Hymns that addresses these questions, does that work better? GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 08:30, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Music education
  • I implemented these changes. I re-phrased a few things in the first paragraph, and removed the awkward sentence in which a practice teaches, which seems unnecessary.
  • Working on a date for Mari.
GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 11:17, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Implemented the re-phrases and wiki links
  • I removed "gala-mah". The source seems to imply that the gala-mah was in charge of other galas, but does not say so explicitly; later it says they may be synonyms.
  • nin-me-sar-ra. I added that it is a short poem written by Enheduanna, and also added a topical detail that she may have referred to her own songwriting or lyrics. I have yet to see anyone say that Enheduanna wrote the music, just the text for the hymns. For example, Hallo and van Dijk don't mention any melodies in their chapter on her "Life and Work".
GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 08:17, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Surviving instruments
  • Regarding the lyre names. That appears to be correct. According to Woolley 1934, it is called the “gold lyre”. It is a partial reconstruction and is the subject of the looting quote in the body. I adjusted the text and caption. There is much variation in the literature with respect to the names of these lyres, so to be safe I think it makes sense to use the name Woolley gave to it? I think the Lyres of Ur article is misleading in that it jumps between different names from the various sources. I agree that this image shows the shape of it well, and I’d favor it over an image of the original, which is difficult to make out.
  • removed “well-known”
GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 12:33, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The festivals Collon refers to are in a religious context; I moved it up
  • I re-worked the ambiguous phrase
  • Military. I added a paragraph. It includes a long quote from Marten 1925, which I think illustrates the main idea nicely, does this fit? The images you suggest look great, especially the first one, which has fine details and shows the musicians “squaring off”. If that image is usable I think it would fit well.
GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 03:36, 22 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
They don't write scholarship like that any more! I'm pretty sure that the File:Bas_relief_Ninive_musiciens_AO_19908.jpg is fine to use, but Nikkimaria seems more knowledgeable than I am on this. Furius (talk) 19:06, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Furius: It appears uploader legitimately took the picture, so their copyright is fine, I've added the copyright for the relief itself. It will be fine for use. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 19:12, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Further comments

As in the first half, the standard is generally very high and most of the comments below are pedantic little issues. I'm sure I'm wrong on some points, too.

Instruments: Divinity
  • "Clear evidence for the divination" -> "Clear evidence for the divinity"
  • "The use of determinatives" --> "Determinatives" & I'd switch the semicolon for a period at the end of the sentence.
  • "intended recipients" feels a little jargonish to me. I think the point of the phrase is that the offerings given were intended for the instrument itself (and not for some god or something), but one might take it to mean "intended but not actualised"...
  • italicise "balag"?
  • Gudea: it is odd that the two sentences on Gudea have become separated and that it is the second of these sentences that explains who/when/where Gudea was.
  • "Several balags are known to have been minor gods to the sun-god Utu" - something a little off here. "associated with" or "connected to"?
  • "suggesting that each instrument was" -> "... these instruments were" (seems strange to assume every instrument had this role, rather than just those with the king's name in them)
  • Add a gloss for "Ninigizibara", e.g. "[i.e. a named musical instrument]"
  • This sub-section sits somewhat awkwardly in the "Instruments" section, which is otherwise about types of instrument. I'm not sure if there is an easy solution to that - and "awkwardness" is subjective, anyway. I had thought about moving it to the "uses of music: religion" section, but it's not exactly about "use", either. Maybe, if this sub-section came at the end of the "instruments" section?
Instruments: Voice
  • "will never be known" seems a little too strong. But maybe so.
  • "contemporary" is ambiguous - does it mean contemporary with the ancient Mesopotamians, with van der Merwe, or with the reader?
  • Link for "dynamic changes"? I'm not sure why "shake" is used instead of "trill" and it comes as a bit of a surprise to click on "graces" and be delivered to tempo, which doesn't mention that term. (perhaps a wiktionary link would be better?)
  • muse --> goddess ? (since "muse" has Greek mythological baggage)
Instruments: Percussive
  • "to produce the rattling sound when shook" -> "that produced the rattling sound when shaken" (this might be a dialectal difference...)
  • "Cymbals were small and massive" --> "Cymbals could be small or massive"
  • "4 types" --> "four types"
  • "rather than sticks" --> "rather than with sticks"
  • The Santur instrument mentioned in the picture is not discussed in text (is it a percussion instrument or a stringed instrument?)
Instruments: Wind
  • Link "Hittites"
  • "although some" --> "and some"; "The silver pipes represent" --> "These silver pipes are"; "500" --> "five hundred"; "flutist" --> "flautist" or "flute-player"
  • The word "flute" - here it would probably be good to include the Sumerian word. The reference to tablet viii perhaps goes into a footnote?
  • Link "cylinder seal" and "Nimrud"
Instruments: String
  • Link "catgut" (and "silk"?); perhaps "mother of pearl" (and "lapis lazuli" at first mention in the Surviving instruments section?)
  • "a bull-headed lyre is in the bass register" --> "... would be in..." (and for the rest of the sentence).
  • "Hittites" and "cylinder seal" are linked here for the first time, although they have already been mentioned. It's probably best to wait until the order of sections has been fully arranged and then do a thorough check on terms like these.
  • If any of these depictions of lyre-players are on the museums' online catalogues, it might be nice to link to them.
  • Gloss "sammû" (or mention and define the term somewhere in the preceding discussion).
  • I think most of the discussion of tuning here would go better in the next section. The names of the strings could stay here, but even that fits better with the discussion of cyclic musical theory in the next section.
Music theory
  • Is a link possible for "diatonic" and "tritone"?
  • Is a bit more explanation of "cyclic theory of music" possible?
  • "would later be called Pythagorean" - I think it would be good to have a link here and a phrasing that makes clearer who called it that and when. It should be obvious that something called Pythagorean is Greek, but actually readers of this article might be primarily musicians or interested in Near Eastern history, so we shouldn't presume familiarity with Greek history if we can help it.
  • italicise the names of the scales and link the Greek names (e.g. Dorian mode).
  • The statement in paragraph 3 that the Mesopotamians used a Lydian scale (implicitly: and only that) and the statement in paragraph 4 that they had a number of scales fit together awkwardly.
  • Give Duchesne-Guillemin's first name / initial. Perhaps it is unavoidable, since this is a technical subject, but I have no idea what these four rules mean. Anything that can be done to spell them out further, or to provide links to other places in WP where the concepts are discussed more thoroughly, would be good.
  • In the "Influence" section the article refers to numerology mysticism in relation to the Greeks, but there is no reference in the article as it stands to the role of numerology in Mesopotamia itself. I think that probably belongs in this section - this would also help counteract the impression currently given in this section that Mesopotamian musical theory was rational and mathematical in exactly the same way as modern music theory.
  • Bahrain - include a link to Dilmun; I don't think it makes sense to include a link to ancient history at this point.
  • The term sinnitu should appear in the Instruments section, not (at least not just) here.
  • It would be good to double-check whether "nefer" actually is Egyptian for "lute". My understanding was that this was an outdated interpretation of the hieroglyph "nefer" (beautiful), now considered to be a depiction of a trachea, not a musical instrument.
  • Is it right to say that the sinnitu has parallels with the Sumerian pan-tur? Shouldn't they be the same thing? "Pandoura" is probably the same thing, also: and is a Roman-period term that appears first in Near Eastern sources, so saying "the Greek pandoura" is a bit like saying "the English gamelan". I guess what these comments are getting at is that this sentence compresses a very wide range of influences over a very broad swathe of time.
  • Why is the image of the lute-player here?
  • Reference to Pythagoras perhaps belongs in the Greek sub-section (and I feel nervous about attributing interest specifically to Pythagoras rather than the Pythagoreans, given how heavily what we are told about him is shaped by later periods).
  • Greek sub-section: I'm not sure the reference to sacrifices to instruments is germane here; it's not a typical feature of Greek religion. In general, I'm nervous about how heavily this rests on Franklin but this seems to be a feature of the current scholarly landscape - there is an article on the Mesopotamian influence on Greek music in the new A Companion to Ancient Greek and Roman Music (2020), edited by Tosca A. C. Lynch & Eleonora Rocconi... also by Franklin (Nevertheless, worth a look and a citation, since things may have changed in 5 years).
  • Persia sub-section: I'd cut the first sentence, which isn't really relevant. "they're" --> "Mesopotamia and Persia were."
  • I'd switch the order of the Persia and Greece sub-sections (since the connection with Persia is closer and starts earlier) and add {{main|Ancient Greek music}} and {{main|Music_of_Iran#Earliest_records}}.
  • Three bigger thoughts: (1) It surprises me a bit that there's not enough scholarship for a sub-section on the relationship with Egyptian music, as the other major neighbour; (2) This section is very focussed on the influence of Mesopotamian music on other cultures - is there really no evidence for the influence of these (and other cultures) on Mesopotamian music? (3) Is it possible to say anything about the influence of Mesopotamian music on Arab music? In asking this question, I am thinking both of any direct influence (e.g., instruments that are still played today) and of attempts by modern Arabs/Iraqis to draw on Mesopotamian musical traditions (i.e. the sort of thing that classicists call reception studies). With these issues, it may be that these reflect real gaps in scholarship, in which case nothing can be done, of course.
End Matter: This looks fine. Maybe add a "see also" section with links to e.g. Parthian music, History of Mesopotamia, Ancient Mesopotamian religion. Furius (talk) 23:40, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you Furius for your additional comments.
  • I agree that the discussion of tuning is better suited in the Music theory section. I moved it there and also adjusting the surrounding text a bit.
GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 05:10, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Most re-phrases and additional wiki links are done. I plan to do a thorough review of the links.
  • Location of the Divinity of instruments section. I think moving it lower in the Instruments section would work, either immediately before or after the Surviving instruments section? No strong opinion.
  • Heptatonic, diatonic, Lydian scale. I think we could lose the Lydian - it was only mentioned because it points to the example in the accompanying image. In the caption, we can say that Lydian is an example of a heptatonic scale. We can also improve the image by including audio, as is done in the Lydian scale depicted in Heptatonic scale.
  • Pythagorean tuning. I added a wiki link perhaps that works? I'm hesitant to state that Duchesne-Guillemin 1984 "called it" that because it doesn't seem to be that author's original idea, but I could be wrong.
GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 22:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Well done. I really like the idea of including audio - I always forget that that's a possibility.
Pythagorean: I meant something like "this is the tuning procedure known to the Greeks as Pythagorean" or whatever. My point is that the current phrasing ("this tuning procedure would later be called Pythagorean, although the Babylonians had worked out the heptatonic system many centuries before Greece") expects the reader to make the link between "later" and "before Greece". It's not the hardest logical leap in the world, but the music theory section is the most technically complicated in the article, so wherever it is possible to clearly spell things out, it would be good to do so. Furius (talk) 11:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest scaling up the sheet music and trade routes
  • Suggest adding alt text
  • Captions need editing for style
  • File:Hurrian_Hymn.jpg: what's the copyright status of the photo?
    @GuineaPigC77: Unfortunately I don't think this one is actually PD for the image itself; the credit is to "RS15.30. Photographs by Françoise Ernst-Pradal, French Archaeological Mission to Ras Shamra-Ugarit"; which appears to be published (for the first time?) in 2017. There is a website that claims courtesy was extended, so I'll see if I can't reach out to her and ask for permission to use it on Wikipedia via OTRS. If not, I think we would struggle to justify a non-free image being used, as although it's a good example, there are free equivalents. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 01:19, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    I've tracked down an email and attempted to contact her, hopefully, she will grant permission. If not, we will have to remove it (and indeed delete it from Commons), I believe. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 01:38, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Thanks so much, @Iazyges. It would be too bad, but Furius prefers a different lead image, and I do think others could work well there. Thanks for reaching out to her. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 04:14, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:N-Mesopotamia_and_Syria_english.svg is tagged as lacking datasource
    Can perhaps be replaced by a map from SVG near east map series by dates, based on whichever date is most preferable. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 02:30, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    @GuineaPigC77: for the map replacement, we have options from 2600 BC to 100 BC (interval of 100 years between), do you have a particular preference? Most of the older maps are sourceless or otherwise poor quality, and about an hour of digging didn't find better options unless we want to try our luck getting one commissioned. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 13:06, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    @Iazyges Thank you. Some of our best examples come from the Ur III period and the OB period. What about 2100 BCE. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 18:38, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    @GuineaPigC77: Done; are there any prose issues that I should be involved in? It appears you have them well in hand. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 19:22, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    @Iazyges Thank you. So far so good. The trickiest concern to address from Furius has been regarding the names and images of the lyres. The Lyres of Ur article is problematic and probably misleading. I'll comment more above, but I see this as the thorniest item at the moment. But overall yes, all the concerns appear doable, so I'm just chugging through. GuineaPigC77 (𒅗𒌤) 22:07, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Once the context section is cut back as advised by other editors above, I'm not convinced that a map of Mesopotamia will be required. File:Ancient_Near_East_2100BC.svg is well-cited, but isn't really focussed on Mesopotamia and (in my subjective opinion) is not terribly attractive. Furius (talk) 01:03, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Hurrian_Hymn_6_interpreted_by_Raoul_Vitale.png needs a tag for the original work, and what is the basis of this interpretation?
  • File:The_Queen's_gold_lyre_from_the_Royal_Cemetery_at_Ur._C._2500_BCE._Iraq_Museum.jpg needs a US tag. Ditto File:God_Ea,_also_Enki,_holding_a_cup_with_overflowing_water._From_Iraq._Pergamon_Museum.jpg, File:Plaque_with_male_musician_playing_a_harp,_Ischali,_baked_clay_-_Oriental_Institute_Museum,_University_of_Chicago_-_DSC07334.JPG, File:Ishtar_goddess.jpg
  • File:LIstofMusicIms2340.jpg: source link is dead. Ditto File:Santur_babylon2.jpg
  • File:Bull's_head_ornament_for_a_lyre_MET_DP260070_(cropped).jpg needs a tag for the original work. Ditto File:Plaque_with_musician_playing_a_lute,_Ischali,_Isin-Larsa_period,_2000-1600_BC,_baked_clay_-_Oriental_Institute_Museum,_University_of_Chicago_-_DSC07344.JPG, File:Ishtar_Gate.gif, File:Chaldean_flag.svg. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:47, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

William D. Mullins

Nominator(s): Curbon7 (talk) 20:09, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

My first FAC. This article is about a minor league baseball pitcher-turned-state legislator who rose to prominence as an honest person in a legislature historically known for its corruption. Big advocate for Western Massachusetts. This subject came to my attention as he is the namesake of the Mullins Center. Curbon7 (talk) 20:09, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Coordinator comments

  • As the nominator is a first time FACer, the article will require a spot check for source to text fidelity.
  • Hi Curbon7, can I ask if you were/are being mentored per the FAC instructions? "Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to seek the involvement of a mentor, to assist in the preparation and processing of the nomination."

Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:02, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I was not mentored. In retrospect, I would've benefited from discussing the image copyrights with Nikkimaria prior. Curbon7 (talk) 12:49, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • Use of 's after a word ending in s seems inconsistent, but I am not sure what is standard in US English for a singular noun which ends in s. You have "one of Western Massachusetts' most" but later you have "Mullins's" and "the Senators's" (the last of which is definitely wrong BTW - with a plural noun ending in s it is always s' and never s's)
See below.
  • "Mullin's professional debut" should be either "Mullins's professional debut" or "Mullins' professional debut" depending on the resolution of the above point but definitely not what is there at the moment
  • "Originally run out of rented room" should be either "Originally run out of rented rooms" or "Originally run out of a rented room" depending how many rooms were involved
  • "without parent consent" => "without parental consent"
  • "with the courthouse serving as way to" => "with the courthouse serving as a way to"
  • "Mullins was a lifelong smoker, having smoked from the age of 17 until quitting in 1984" - not really lifelong, if he didn't start till he was 17 and stopped two years before he died. Maybe just say "a longtime smoker"
  • That's what I got :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:56, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    For the apostrophes, I was following MOS:POSS for singular nouns, which states that "including proper names and words ending in s, add 's". Regardless, I re-jigged some sentences and pronoun-ed out to remove most instances of "Mullins's" as it was quite awkward in most instances, per that last sentence in "Singular nouns". I appreciate the review :)! Curbon7 (talk) 23:08, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support on prose -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:03, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • File:William_D._Mullins.png: the given fair-use tag is not appropriate for the proposed use of this image here. Normally I'd suggest {{non-free biog-pic}}, but in this case we do have a free image of the person so I'm not sure that is justified either. Have you verified that the publication included a copyright notice and whether the copyright was renewed?
  • File:Pierce_Mullins_DeFilippi_political_cartoon.png also has the incorrect fair-use tag, and if it's to be included the FUR will need to be strengthened

In passing I'd also note that the article would benefit from a thorough edit for MOS compliance - I fixed a few issues but more work is needed. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:49, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Nikkimaria, Alt text has been added. For File:William_D._Mullins.png, I looked into the copyright databases and found no initial notice or renewal (following [1]); I would also figure this one meets NFCC#8 as the only image to show him as an athlete with no free alternative. I've gone ahead and removed and G7'd File:Pierce_Mullins_DeFilippi_political_cartoon.png, as it was definitely pushing the limit and it isn't really necessary. Curbon7 (talk) 13:38, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • On the athlete image, my question was more, are we sure this is non-free? Can we confirm the original publication had no notice included? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:15, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Ok got it, sorry for the delay. There does appear to have been a notice included in the original, but it was not renewed. Curbon7 (talk) 12:38, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Nikkimaria, After checking once more to be sure, yes the license was not renewed, so {{PD-US-not renewed}} does apply here. I have moved the image over to Commons with the proper licensing now. Thank you for your help! Face-smile.svg Curbon7 (talk) 20:58, 20 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

1920–21 Gillingham F.C. season

Nominator(s): ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:32, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

For my 20th nomination of a season in the history of my beloved Gillingham F.C. I've gone for the one that started in '20. Seemed apt :-) Comments as ever will be most gratefully received and swiftly acted upon! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:32, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild

Recusing to review.

  • "he accepted another job before the season had started." Suggest deleting "had".
  • " Gillingham's results in their first season". Maybe "in" → 'during'?
  • Infobox: the MoS, footnote a, says "Wikipedia uses sentence case for ... entries in infoboxes ...". So maybe an A for "approx"?
  • " had played in the Southern League since the competition's formation". Is a league a competition?
  • "Annual General Meeting". Why the upper case initials?
  • "AGM". Should be in brackets after the first mention of the full term.
  • ' "pro tem"'. Why the quote marks? Why the italics? Why the, mostly, US English phrase. Maybe just 'temporarily'?
  • "per week and was assisted by Jim Kennedy as trainer." Suggest "and" → 'who'.
    • I don't believe that "He was replaced by John McMillan, who was paid a wage of £7 per week who was assisted by Jim Kennedy as trainer." would be grammatically correct..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:51, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:06, 18 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Gog the Mild: - thanks. All the above addressed other than where noted -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:51, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "signed a large number of new players". Is the actual number known?
  • "largest recorded attendance of the entire season". Is "entire" necessary?
    • That's to make it clear that it was not merely the largest of the season up to that point -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:12, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "the Dispatch's reporter noting"; "the correspondent for the Daily Telegraph stated". Could the tense be standardised?
  • "both Branfield and Robertson were missing from the team for the only time during the season." The only time they were both missing?
  • " he was dropped again. Gillingham again played". Perhaps avoid "again" twice in three words?

Gog the Mild (talk) 14:04, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Gog the Mild: - thanks. All the above addressed other than where noted -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:12, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Source and citation review by Dugan Murphy: Pass

Will do. Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:32, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • The History of English Football Clubs on WorldCat lists only one author. Is WorldCat wrong or your source listing?
    • Not 100% sure what WorldCat is but I am literally looking at my copy of the book at the moment and on the front cover it says "Colin Mitchell with Jon Reeves and Daniel Tyler" -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:43, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • All the books but Elligate and Soar are missing publisher locations. Can you add those?
  • I can't find Home of the Shouting Men on WorldCat, but I found it on a couple commercial websites like Amazon and ABEbooks. That leaves me a little suspicious of its reliability. What tells you it is a reliable source?
    • It is the club's official centenary history book, published by the club itself. It is only used to cite the names of the club chairman and trainer at the time, and I have no reason to believe that an official club publication would be unreliable on or wrong about this -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:43, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • ""Saints" Secure a Point" should be "'Saints' Secure a Point", I believe
  • Same for ""Saints" Easy Win"
  • Per MOS:CT, capitalize titles for citations 13, 16, 17, 20, 22, 26, 28, 36, and 37

Except for the issues above, the sources and citations are satisfactorily and consistently formatted. Except for the question I have about one of the books, the sources all seem to be reliable. Dugan Murphy (talk) 02:14, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Dugan Murphy: - many thanks for your review, all done! :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:56, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I agree with your assessment of Homes of the Shouting Men and am very willing to believe you regarding the authorship of The History of English Football Clubs. Thank you for addressing all my comments. Dugan Murphy (talk) 14:09, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Dugan Murphy: - no problem! Thumbs up icon -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:16, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments Support from Eem dik doun in toene

Early skyscrapers

Nominator(s): – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 20:26, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about skyscrapers built before World War II, and especially before the Great Depression. These were primarily focused in New York and Chicago, but by the interwar period had spread to many other cities and countries. Although tall structures have existed since the 3rd millennium BC (c.f. the Great Pyramid of Giza), skyscrapers as we know them were not technically feasible prior to the late 19th century, and what better places than the major cities of America to experiment with new architectural forms?

For full disclosure, I did not write the large portion of this article; that honor goes to Hchc2009, who is regrettably no longer active on Wikipedia but who gave his blessing to this FAC. Since Hchc wrote almost 90 percent of this article, I do not intend to claim WikiCup points from this nom, nor do I think anyone else should. I did, however, make some minor cleanups to this article (duplink removal, consistency in AmEng, etc.), and I believe this article passes the criteria on prose (pending minor copyediting, which can be done as seen fit rather than clog up the review). I am also pinging Epicgenius, who I am quite surprised also did not write (much of) this article but to whom this should be of great interest. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 20:26, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Don't use fixed px size
    • Fixed
  • Suggest adding alt text
    • Done
  • File:Terminal_Tower_ceiling.jpg: what is the copyright status of the interior design?
    • Irrelevant, as the US has freedom of panorama for lobbies, especially in pre-1990 buildings.
      • The description identifies the design as a mural - is that not correct? Murals are not 3D. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:09, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
        • If it is referring to the murals in the window arches (which I believe it is), those qualify as de minimis IMO, since the focus is on the ceiling (which is 3D/building/FoP) and I needed to expressly look at the arches to see where these "murals", which are in any event angled and out of focus, were. However, even without such protection, they were installed before 1978 and don't appear to have a copyright notice attached to them, so they should be fine. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 03:22, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Old_timer_structural_worker2.jpg: why is this believed to be a US government work?
  • File:Home_Insurance_Building.JPG: when was this first published? Ditto File:Newspaper_Row,_1906.JPG
    • For the Home Insurance Building, it appears that it wasn't published until 1931; I've removed the image for now, and referred the matter to Commons. For Newspaper Row, the site says that the NYT published it in 1906, but clicking on the link given gives me a dead link and the Internet Archive is of no help, so I have no choice but to take it at its word.
  • File:Chicago_Masonic_Temple_Building.jpg: if the author is known, how do we know they died over 70 years ago? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:53, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Nom pinging

Perhaps due to the length and scope breadth of this article, this hasn't attracted an especial lot of attention. I'll ping some FAC buddies/WikiProject Skyscrapers contributors/WikiCup participants here: @FrB.TG, Wehwalt, Trainsandotherthings, Steelkamp, Kusma, Lee Vilenski, SounderBruce, MelbourneStar, and CookieMonster755:, in addition to repinging @Epicgenius:. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 02:35, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I can't make any promises, but I will keep this on my radar. It depends on how busy I am the next few weeks. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 02:44, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I will review this after finishing a review of 8th Missouri Infantry Regiment (Confederate). Steelkamp (talk) 03:32, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I will review this soon. FrB.TG (talk) 12:15, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
My time's short due to travel but I'll see if I can get in a review.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:08, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks for the ping. I also have very little time over the next few weeks due to real-life commitments. However, I can also leave some comments. – Epicgenius (talk) 22:11, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Just checking, John, are you familiar enough with the source material to be able to address any concerns that might come up about accuracy or comprehensiveness? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:36, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
HJ Mitchell I am not; as said earlier, I am nominating someone else's article, mainly focusing on prose and image concerns while assuming good faith on the sourcing. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 18:08, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


OK, I'll do some non-expert reviewing. I'll look in detail later, just first impression:

  • There may be a structural/comprehensiveness issue in the body: we seem to get dropped right in the middle of 19th century New York. Shouldn't we first discuss what the term "skyscraper" means and what "early" means in the context? Which tall buildings are skyscrapers? See also Skyscraper#Definition. You do discuss the term later, but that is after more than a screenful of extensive use. This could also help with clarifying which European tall buildings (if any) should be discussed in the context (why are the 10+ storey buildings in Edinburgh Old Town not "skyscrapers"? What about Queen Anne's Mansions or the Royal Liver Building?).
  • In a similar direction, it would be good to state again at the beginning of the body that this is very much a New York and Chicago topic.
  • Is the definition of "early"="before the end of World War II" universally accepted? (The Early Chicago Skyscrapers are all from the 19th century)
  • Commercial and social drivers: I'm wondering whether this isn't a bit long (perhaps because I'm waiting for the article to get to the point and start building skyscrapers).
  • "Most buildings adopted the Italian Renaissance inspired palazzo-style of architecture popular in England, and rose no more than five or six stories." perhaps this would read better with less active buildings.
  • Technological developments: "French engineers experimented" as I read the source, this is Hippolyte Fontaine (fr:Hippolyte Fontaine also mentions his engineering works on the Docks de Saint-Ouen [fr]). What are the "engineering journals"? (A cursory glance suggests the titles cited are books, but I could be wrong).
  • "Augustin-Jean Fresnel" source says it was his brother Léonor.
  • Fireproofing: Who are the "French engineers"? Peter B. Wight seems to be mentioned in this context on p. 27 of the source, not p. 24

More later! —Kusma (talk) 23:01, 23 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • @Kusma: As said earlier, someone else wrote this article, so I don't have the deepest expertise on the subject matter or sourcing that I would for one of "my own" FACs. That said, I have added a section on pre-19th century tall structures and how the "skyscrapers" of the 19th century fit into them, and I'll address your other concerns in the coming weeks. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 00:49, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • That helps. For the history of the word, the source just refers to the OED, which would IMO be better to (also) cite directly. Do you have a citation for "Where the "skyscraper" fits into this history is somewhat nebulous."?
    • I do not, I just thought it would be a good-sounding transition. I've decided that it's not necessary, though. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 00:10, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • (Further down, but I don't want to forget to mention this): The Seven Sisters are seven buildings, not one. The main building of Moscow State University reminded me of the Cathedral of Learning, which used to be the world's tallest educational building and fits into the time covered by the article. I'm not an expert, though, so I have no idea what examples should be included.

And again, more later. —Kusma (talk) 22:36, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • More sourcing issues. "The Home Insurance Building in Chicago, opened in 1885, is, however, most often labeled the first skyscraper because of its innovative use of structural steel in a metal frame design" snippet says something like this is on Schleier 1986 p. 5, but what is the relevance of Condit p. 115?
  • Why is the Witte Huis a skyscraper? The whole "foreign skyscrapers" bit is lacking citations.
  • "The design won critical acclaim within the American architectural profession." citation seems off by a page?
  • "Architect Cass Gilbert designs included" grammar.
  • Throughout the article, "the war" and similar expressions sometimes mean WW1, sometimes WW2.
  • "Lewis Hine, employed to record the building of the Empire State Building, portrayed the skyscraper construction teams as courageous heroes, creating a genre of photography that continued up until 1941" do you mean "until the US entered WW2" or is there something else about 1941 here? Is there a name for the genre?
  • "Skyscraper development paused during the years of World War II. Once development began again in the 1950s and 1960s, the skyscraper entered a different phase of development, usually called the international or modern period." source?
  • "Critical discussion of early skyscrapers began from the 1880s onwards in the architectural community and continued across a growing cultural and academic community in the inter-war period. " Is this in the source cited? And does it say very much other than that discussion of skyscrapers is as old as skyscrapers?

Overall an interesting article, but I am unsure whether I can properly judge it for comprehensiveness. We see in-depth discussion of Chicago and New York (at various times in history) while the rest of the world comes up only as examples that are not discussed in much detail; it is hard for me to tell whether this is appropriate. I am also worried by the often somewhat imprecise citations (and some uncited bits) and would recommend checking the sourcing thoroughly. I may comment more but I will leave the article to others for the moment. —Kusma (talk) 23:22, 27 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • Oppose. I hate having to oppose articles, but there are times it's unavoidable. I expected to see comprehensive coverage of what constitutes "early skyscrapers", but see this is about late 19th/early 20th century US buildings. As it stands it is not comprehensive enough in scope to justify the title.
    The sources are also lacking. This is a well-covered field (America's first and most important architectural development), but I would have thought Jason Barr's Building the Skyline: The Birth and Growth of Manhattan's Skyscrapers (OUP, 2018) and Skyscrapers: A History of the World's Most Extraordinary Buildings by Adrian Smith and Judith Dupré would be in there. I also see there's no use of the CTBUH Journal from the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat – and nothing even from the journal of the Society of Architectural Historians, which is actually based in Chicago. So, we can't say that the literature has been comprehensively explored either. Given Kusma's concerns on sourcing and some of the grammar, I think this would be best off withdrawn and worked on, prior to re-nominating at a later date. Sorry! - SchroCat (talk) 19:26, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Nominator(s): Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 20:10, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about the largest marsupial ever, and the first Australian fossil mammal ever described, an elephantine wombat which lumbered across the continent until 40,000 years ago. This would be only the 3rd marsupial FA, after Tasmanian tiger and Tasmanian devil, and the 1st prehistoric marsupial Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 20:10, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Tammar wallaby and Koala are also FAs. LittleJerry (talk) 20:39, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • File:Evolution_in_the_past_(Plate_55)_BHL21155651.jpg: what is the author's date of death?
1951 Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 17:02, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Suggest adding full name and dates to description. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:26, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
done Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 01:56, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Diprotodon_optatum_(2).jpg: what sources support this illustration?
it was reviewed at WP:PALEOART Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 17:02, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Link? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:26, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hm, looks like it hasn't, I've added it now and I'll remove the image from the article in the meantime Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 20:16, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Diprotodon_molars.jpg: what is the author's date of death? Ditto File:Diprotodon_femur_interior.jpg, File:Diprotodon_femur_exterior.jpg
1892 Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 17:02, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Suggest adding dates to description. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:26, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
done Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 01:56, 17 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Extinct_monsters_and_creatures_of_other_days_(cropped).jpg: where is that licensing coming from?
It's the cropped version of File:Extinct monsters and creatures of other days (6288822378).jpg Dunkleosteus77 (talk) 17:02, 16 January 2023 (UTC)