Gpedia:Featured article candidates

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This star, with one point broken, indicates that an article is a candidate on this page.

Here, we determine which articles are to be featured articles (FAs). FAs exemplify Gpedia's very best work and satisfy the FA criteria. All editors are welcome to review nominations; please see the review FAQ.

Before nominating an article, nominators may wish to receive feedback by listing it at Peer review and adding the review to the FAC peer review sidebar. Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to seek the involvement of a mentor, to assist in the preparation and processing of the nomination. Nominators must be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal with objections during the featured article candidates (FAC) process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article before nominating it. Nominators are expected to respond positively to constructive criticism and to make efforts to address objections promptly. An article should not be on Featured article candidates and Peer review or Good article nominations at the same time.

The FAC coordinators—Ian Rose, Gog the Mild, Buidhe and Hog Farm—determine the timing of the process for each nomination. For a nomination to be promoted to FA status, consensus must be reached that it meets the criteria. Consensus is built among reviewers and nominators; the coordinators determine whether there is consensus. A nomination will be removed from the list and archived if, in the judgment of the coordinators:

  • actionable objections have not been resolved;
  • consensus for promotion has not been reached;
  • insufficient information has been provided by reviewers to judge whether the criteria have been met; or
  • a nomination is unprepared, after at least one reviewer has suggested it be withdrawn.

It is assumed that all nominations have good qualities; this is why the main thrust of the process is to generate and resolve critical comments in relation to the criteria, and why such resolution is given considerably more weight than declarations of support.

Do not use graphics or complex templates on FAC nomination pages. Graphics such as  Done and  Not done slow down the page load time, and complex templates can lead to errors in the FAC archives. For technical reasons, templates that are acceptable are {{collapse top}} and {{collapse bottom}}, used to hide offtopic discussions, and templates such as {{green}} that apply colours to text and are used to highlight examples without altering fonts. Other templates such as {{done}}, {{not done}}, {{tq}}, {{tq2}}, and {{xt}}, may be removed.

An editor is allowed to be the sole nominator of only one article at a time, but two nominations may be allowed if the editor is a co-nominator on at least one of them. If a nomination is archived, the nominator(s) should take adequate time to work on resolving issues before re-nominating. None of the nominators may nominate or co-nominate any article for two weeks unless given leave to do so by a coordinator; if such an article is nominated without asking for leave, a coordinator will decide whether to remove it. A coordinator may exempt from this restriction an archived nomination that attracted no (or minimal) feedback.

Nominations in urgent need of review are listed here. To contact the FAC coordinators, please leave a message on the FAC talk page, or use the {{@FAC}} notification template elsewhere.

A bot will update the article talk page after the article is promoted or the nomination archived; the delay in bot processing can range from minutes to several days, and the {{FAC}} template should remain on the talk page until the bot updates {{Article history}}.

Table of ContentsThis page: Purge cache

Featured content:

Featured article candidates (FAC)

Featured article review (FAR)

Today's featured article (TFA):

Featured article tools:


How to nominate an article

Nomination procedure

  1. Before nominating an article, ensure that it meets all of the FA criteria and that peer reviews are closed and archived. The featured article toolbox (at right) can help you check some of the criteria.
  2. Place {{subst:FAC}} at the top of the talk page of the nominated article and save the page.
  3. From the FAC template, click on the red "initiate the nomination" link or the blue "leave comments" link. You will see pre-loaded information; leave that text. If you are unsure how to complete a nomination, please post to the FAC talk page for assistance.
  4. Below the preloaded title, complete the nomination page, sign with ~~~~, and save the page.
  5. Copy this text: {{Gpedia:Featured article candidates/name of nominated article/archiveNumber}} (substituting Number), and edit this page (i.e., the page you are reading at the moment), pasting the template at the top of the list of candidates. Replace "name of ..." with the name of your nomination. This will transclude the nomination into this page. In the event that the title of the nomination page differs from this format, use the page's title instead.

Commenting, etc

Commenting, supporting and opposing

Supporting and opposing

  • To respond to a nomination, click the "Edit" link to the right of the article nomination (not the "Edit this page" link for the whole FAC page). All editors are welcome to review nominations; see the review FAQ for an overview of the review process.
  • To support a nomination, write *'''Support''', followed by your reason(s), which should be based on a full reading of the text. If you have been a significant contributor to the article before its nomination, please indicate this. A reviewer who specializes in certain areas of the FA criteria should indicate whether the support is applicable to all of the criteria.
  • To oppose a nomination, write *'''Object''' or *'''Oppose''', followed by your reason(s). Each objection must provide a specific rationale that can be addressed. If nothing can be done in principle to address the objection, a coordinator may disregard it. References on style and grammar do not always agree; if a contributor cites support for a certain style in a standard reference work or other authoritative source, reviewers should consider accepting it. Reviewers who object are strongly encouraged to return after a few days to check whether their objection has been addressed. To withdraw the objection, strike it out (with <s> ... </s>) rather than removing it. Alternatively, reviewers may transfer lengthy, resolved commentary to the FAC archive talk page, leaving a link in a note on the FAC archive.
  • To provide constructive input on a nomination without specifically supporting or objecting, write *'''Comment''' followed by your advice.
  • For ease of editing, a reviewer who enters lengthy commentary may create a neutral fourth-level subsection, named either ==== Review by EditorX ==== or ==== Comments by EditorX ==== (do not use third-level or higher section headers). Please do not create subsections for short statements of support or opposition—for these a simple *'''Support''',*'''Oppose''', or *'''Comment''' followed by your statement of opinion, is sufficient. Please do not use a semicolon to bold a subheading; this creates accessibility problems.
  • If a nominator feels that an Oppose has been addressed, they should say so, either after the reviewer's signature, or by interspersing their responses in the list provided by the reviewer. Per talk page guidelines, nominators should not cap, alter, strike, or add graphics to comments from other editors. If a nominator finds that an opposing reviewer is not returning to the nomination page to revisit improvements, this should be noted on the nomination page, with a diff to the reviewer's talk page showing the request to reconsider.


Sumitro Djojohadikusumo

Nominator(s): Juxlos (talk) 13:34, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about an Indonesian economist/politician/rebel/oligarch/aristocrat/statesman, depending on when and who you ask (well except "economist", everyone agrees on that), who formed Indonesia's economic policies from 1950 to 1957 and 1968 to the 1980s and arguably to this day. Previous FAC failed due to general lack of interest (helps that Indonesian history isn't exactly common knowledge). Juxlos (talk) 13:34, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Don't use fixed px size
  • Suggest adding a legend to the map caption, since the inbuilt one is unreadable at that size
  • File:Suharto,_Irian_Barat_dari_Masa_ke_Masa,_Preface_(cropped).jpg needs a US tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:32, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Addressed. Is the "legend" sufficient? Juxlos (talk) 16:09, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Not quite: what represents the operations? The dashed lines, the arrows, both, something else? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:53, 27 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Rhodesia Information Centre

Nominator(s): Nick-D (talk) 09:48, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The Rhodesia Information Centre was the unofficial, and illegal, embassy the Rhodesian government maintained in Australia from 1966 to 1980. As the Australian government did not recognise Rhodesia's independence it had almost no contact with Australian officials. Instead, it spread propaganda trying to win Australians over to the white minority regime in Rhodesia and helped businesses evade the trade sanctions against the country. The Rhodesian Information Centre survived multiple attempts by the Australian government to close it, including one which led to a High Court case in 1973 and another which caused a backbench revolt in 1977, and was finally shut down by the Zimbabwean government in 1980. As a result, while this is a slightly obscure topic, the article covers a lively period in Australian foreign relations and provides insights into Australian attitudes towards white minority rule in Africa during this period.

This is my first non-military history FAC. I developed the article as a lockdown project after becoming interested in the topic after the Bradley v Commonwealth article appeared as a DYK in August 2021. The article passed a GA nomination in September that year. It's since been considerably expanded. I'd like to acknowledge the historian Matthew Jordan who, during the period last year before libraries reopened, kindly sent me a copy of his impressive volume of official documents and analysis concerning the Australian government's approach to Rhodesia. Thank you in advance to reviewers for your consideration of this nomination and comments. Nick-D (talk) 09:48, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • File:Rhodesia_Information_Centre_in_December_1972_-_fair_use_claimed.jpg: the tag currently in use is for cases where the illustration is of the newspaper article/issue - that's not the case here. Suggest using a different tag.
  • File:Zimbabwe_Australia_Locator.png is tagged as lacking description, and is missing a source for the base image. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:35, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The Mother of All Demos

Nominator(s): MyCatIsAChonk (talk) 20:14, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about... a famous computer demonstration from 1968 for the Association for Computing Machinery / Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (ACM/IEEE). This demo featured a variety of technologies that would become essential in modern computing, like windows, computer mice, video conferencing, a collaborative real-time editing. The name "The Mother of All Demos" comes from the importance of this demo in modern computing. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) 20:14, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

Roanoke Island, North Carolina, half dollar

Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 18:07, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about... Another of the commemorative half dollars of the classic era, with a subject that would have been familiar if you had gone to school when I did, but probably isn't much taught today, the colony of Roanoke Island, and the birth of Virginia Dare. Enjoy.Wehwalt (talk) 18:07, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Punic Wars

Nominator(s): Gog the Mild (talk) 18:10, 22 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Having taken the articles on all four constituent wars to FA, I am pleased to present the over-arching Punic Wars for your consideration. 118 years of bitter enmity between Carthage and Rome boiled down to 7,200 words. I took this article through GAN in September 2020 and have been tinkering with it since. I have recently been able to give it the time it deserves in an attempt to get it up to FAC quality and take on board comments from the FACs of its four "sub-articles". I look forward to your thoughts, comments and opinions. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:10, 22 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I had a feeling this article would show up here eventually :) (t · c) buidhe 19:31, 22 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Placeholder from Airship

Will return shortly. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:40, 22 November 2022 (UTC) As always, I emphasise that these are suggestions.Reply[reply]

  • Preliminary comment: why not have a four paragraph lead, with the opening paragraph for introduction? As of now, the lead rather lacks any context for the general reader, and almost seems to eschew the larger article subject (the Punic Wars as a whole) in favour of details of each indivudual conflict. At least, to me it does. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:49, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks: On first reading that sounds reasonable - I wasn't over happy with the lead myself, but couldn't see what to do with it. I'll come up with a suggestion and post it here. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:40, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest scaling up pretty much all the maps, and ensuring a legend is visible
  • File:Domain_changes_during_the_Punic_Wars.gif: see MOS:COLOUR. Ditto File:Iberia_211-210BC-it_(cropped).png
  • File:Bronze_statue_of_a_Hellenistic_prince,_1st_half_of_2nd_century_BC,_found_on_the_Quirinal_in_Rome,_Palazzo_Massimo_alle_Terme,_Rome_(31479801364).jpg needs a tag for the original work. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:56, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

American transportation in the Siegfried Line campaign

Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:35, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about American transportation in the Siegfried Line campaign. It is the second half of of what was once one article on the logistical support of the American armies between September and December 1944, but the article was split. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:35, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from TAOT

I remember reviewing this last time it came here. Happy to see it back, and I'm hoping we reach a consensus to promote. Comments will come shortly; this is a long article, so I will go section by section. I do have an active FAC as well if you wish to return the favor. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 21:25, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • "Ardennes Offensive" should be capitalized, yes?
    Uggh. Don't get me started. Per MOS:MILTERMS, Words such as campaign, offensive, siege, action, pocket, etc., are typically not frequently capitalized in sources, so are lowercase in Gpedia. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:09, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    I only brought this up because Battle of the Bulge has "Offensive" capitalized. If MOS says it should be lowercase, then it's fine as is in this article. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 03:39, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The subsequent advance to the German border stretched the American logistical system to breaking point Suggest "to its breaking point".
    Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:09, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The Allies should be linked in the first mention, not in the second paragraph.
    Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:13, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Additional port capacity was obtained through the development of the ports of Rouen and Le Havre in September and October, I assume this is meant to mean the first was in September and the second in October? If so, suggest "September and October, respectively".
    Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:09, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
More later. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 00:19, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • This is nitpicking (and the article is very well written, so most of my comments will be nitpicking), but in the first sentence, do those emdashes eliminate the need for a DATECOMMA?
    The military date format eliminates it. Parenthetical commas are only required with the mdy date format. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:08, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • This stretched the logistical system to breaking point. Same comment as I made regarding the lead section.
    Changed too. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:08, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Between 25 August and 12 September, the Allied armies advanced from the D plus 90 phase line, the position the Operation Overlord plan expected to be reached 90 days after D-Day, to the D plus 350 one I didn't understand this on first reading, due to "D plus 350 one". Wasn't sure if this meant D plus 351, or was a typo. Suggest instead saying "D plus 350 line" or something similar to eliminate confusion.
    Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:08, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Rather, the problem was the inability to deliver fuel and supplies. Suggest "deliver fuel and supplies to the front lines" or similar.
    Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:08, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • there was a shortage of suitable vehicles can you name any examples here (I found 6-ton 6×6 truck in a navbox, for instance) of suitable long-haul vehicles that were in short supply? You name the deuce and a half truck later, which is helpful, and I think examples of what wasn't available would be similarly helpful.
    See American logistics in the Northern France campaign#Motor transport for the details. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:08, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • If six to eight weeks could be gained, then bad weather would set in, further restricting the Allies' mobility, air operations and logistical support. This is referring to the onset of winter, right? Suggest making that more explicit.
    Autumn rains and storms. Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:08, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Will continue in the near future. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 21:25, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • They were operated by the 16th Major Port, which was relieved by the 5th Major Port in September. This is referring to military units? It wasn't clear to me at first. I see there's a bit of explanation later in this section (such as IDing the commanding officer); it might be prudent to move that to the first mention so the reader understands the 16th Major Port is referring to a military logistics unit.
  • suggest linking Harbourmaster.
    Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:06, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • In general, what variant of English are you using for this article? I ask because I see both American/Canadian terminology ("railroad car)" and European/Australian terminology ("marshalling yard").
    US military English. Checked this usage against the sources, and "marshalling yard" is what the US military historian uses. Looked at the manual on Joint Logistics and it says "marshalling yard" is the correct term on p. H-2. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:06, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Huh. That's peculiar; in normal American English, using "marshalling yard" is never done, that's a distinctly British English term. But if that's the correct term in US military English, you are in the right to use such terminology. Thanks for checking. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 14:39, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • In October 1945, it was turned over to the French. Might be worth noting this was after the conclusion of the war.
    Sure. Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:06, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The Seine ports had figured prominently in the Overlord plan, but for the supply of the 21st Army Group. Not sure the "but" is necessary here. Suggest simply "The Seine ports had figured prominently in the Overload plan for the supply of the 21st Army Group".
    Added "not the American forces". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:06, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Link Hydrostatic pressure.
    Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:06, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Piling can be linked to Pile (type of foundation).
    Linked to timber pilings. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:06, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The photo in the Rouen section is interesting, but I don't see how it relates directly to the prose there.
    Logistical unit based in Rouen. Made this explicit. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:06, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • It was situated on the Scheldt River some 55 miles (89 km) inland, but unlike other ports on tidal estuaries, it could receive deep draft vessels on all tides, with a minimum depth at the quays of 27 feet (8.2 m), and the river was still 500 yards (460 m) wide at this point, which gave even the largest vessels ample room to maneuver. This is quite a long sentence, recommend splitting into two sentences.
    Split sentence. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:06, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Some ports mention when they were returned to French/Belgian control, and others do not. Recommend making this consistent across all ports.
    If it is not mentioned, then they weren't handed back during the World War II period. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:06, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
More to come soon. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 15:05, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • Although the Red Ball Express was the first and most famous express highway delivery route, it was by no means the only one. The first of these was the Red Lion, which ran from 16 September to 12 October, and hauled 18,000 long tons (18,000 t) of supplies from Bayeux to Brussels. You say the Red Ball Express was first here, but immediately contradict that in the following sentence.
    Tightened the wording. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:32, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • These were manufactured at Differdange in Luxembourg, and after it was liberated it began producing steel beams for the Allies. When did the liberation occur? Recommend adding this to the article.
    On 9 September 1944. Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:32, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Consider linking "Truck to train transfer" to Transloading.
    Sure. Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:32, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Over 57,000 railroad cars of various types, including boxcars, flatcars, refrigerator cars and tanker cars were shipped to the continent. Link tank car.
    Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:32, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Part of the problem was that the armies liked to keep a certain amount of supplies on wheels, using railroad cars as warehouses on wheels The use of "on wheels" twice in a row is a bit awkward. I recommend "using railroad cars as mobile warehouses" instead.
    Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:32, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The vital railway bridge over the Meuse at Namur was struck by a German air raid that set off Allied demolition charges. When did this happen?
    On 24 December 1944. Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:32, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • Consider a comma after "November" in In November 3,227 long tons (3,279 t) were dispatched by air,
    Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:32, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Inland waterways


Overall, well written article. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 16:33, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Happy to support on prose. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 22:49, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

  • "From September onwards, an increasing volume of supplies came directly from the United States in Liberty ships that were stowed to make optimal use of cargo space." You have in this sentence "an increasing volume of supplies", that takes a singular verb, and "Liberty ships", that takes a plural noun. You say "were stowed", so I'm forced to assume the Liberty ships were stowed, not the volume of supplies. Yet that seems odd.
    Trying to say too much in the one sentence. Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:28, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "quayside". "Dockside" seems more American. Not also that this link goes to a waterfront area in Newcastle-upon-Tyne.
    Changed to "dockside" Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:28, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The ending of the lede doesn't sound like an ending, but seems to leave off.
    Added another paragraph
  • "albeit on reduced scales" This is a bit unclear whether the units were pared down or their rations and supplies were.
    Added "of rations and supplies". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:28, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "The German strategy was to conduct a fighting withdrawal to the Siegfried Line (which they called the Westwall) while holding and demolishing the ports and harbors. These would be held as long as possible." Probably these could be combined into one sentence (beginning after the parenthetical) " ... while holding the ports and harbors for as long as possible, and demolishing them".
    That will work. Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:28, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
More soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:53, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Eric Harrison (RAAF officer)

Nominator(s): Ian Rose (talk) 13:51, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm new at this so go easy... ;-) Okay, Eric Harrison was, along with Henry Petre, one of the founders of the original Central Flying School at Point Cook, Victoria, in 1913–14. Unlike Petre, he remained a part of Australian military aviation after World War I, and so was the first man to be known as the "Father of the RAAF", a title more commonly bestowed in later times on one of their students, Richard Williams. So Harrison is, as described by an RAAF officer in 1999, something of an "unsung hero" now, but I hope worthy of your attention... FTR, this has long been an A-Class article at MilHist but I never got round back then to adding some new references and sending to FAC as I did with Petre's article -- better late than never...! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:51, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • "Harrison was promoted honorary captain" => "Harrison was promoted to honorary captain".....?
  • "Promoted group captain on 1 January 1935" -> "Promoted to group captain on 1 January 1935"....?
    • This is common militarese but happy to alter -- nothing incorrect about "promoted to".
  • "metrological testing" - is this a typo for meteorological? If not is there an appropriate link, because I personally don't know what metrological means?
    • Tks, yes it deserves a link.
  • Think that's all I got - great work! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:46, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:40, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Don't use fixed px size
    • Done.
  • File:Douglas_DC2_Kyeema_1937_(nla.obj-144682466-1).jpg: the NLA indicates that Crome was the collector of these images rather than the author. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:17, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • Fair enough, I think it started out as one photographer's work then expanded to include others'.

Tks Nikki, let me know if all good. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:44, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild

Recusing to review. I will make minor copy edits as I go. Shout if I mess anything up.

  • "his post of Director of Aeronautical Inspection". Why the upper case initial lettrs?
    • The ADB uses lower case but the majority of other sources cap the first letters of Commonwealth titles.
  • "Gaining employment as an instructor for Bristol, he taught flying on behalf of the company in Spain and Italy, as well as in Halberstadt, Germany, where he became aware first-hand of that country's militarism; some of the students he trained and examined later served as pilots in the Luftstreitkräfte during World War I." A pretty chunky sentence.
    • Won't disagree but hoped the semi-colon gave pause for breath -- if you're really keen to split it I'm happy to have a go though.
  • "gaining his commission": is there any suitable link for "commission"?
  • You consistently don't put 'the' before CFS (with the exception of "maintaining the CFS's complement"), is there a reason? Also lead "the Central Flying School"; captions "Eric Harrison at Central Flying School", "in a B.E.2 at Central Flying School".
    • CFS is consistently referred to in sources without the definite article, and in fact that exception you note should be altered accordingly.
  • "30 feet (9.1 m)". I suspect 9.1 m may be false precision.
    • I agree, forgot the template had a rounding parameter -- actioned.
  • "when he was posted to Britain ... at the end of World War I". A picky point, but it seems he was posted before the war's end.
    • Well I felt we're only talking a few weeks' difference and by the time he started his work in Britain the war had probably ended -- I could make "towards the end" if you feel strongly about it.
I do. At the point he was posted the war had not ended and I am not sure that it was expected to. Or rephrase to something like "when he was posted to Britain" → 'when he took up a post in Britain' perhaps?
  • The chronology jumps around a little disconcertingly. In one paragraph it goes from 1921 to 1938 and back to 1931; understandably given the context. But the next paragraph starts in 1935, before progressing to 1937. Separately, is there nothing to report from between 1921 and 1931?
    • I think this impression was caused by a typo in the first para of that section, giving his appointment as Director of Aeronautical Inspection as being 1938 instead of 1928 -- actioned.
Ah, yes, indeed.
  • "Federal government's". Is it usual t have an upper-case F and a lower-case g?
    • Again some sources cap both words, some just the first, and some none. We could hedge our bets in this case and make "Australian government" -- actioned.
  • One daughter is mentioned. Was she his only child?
    • No other children mention in sources.
Then perhaps 'Their daughter and only child, Greta ...'?
  • "just as the war had ended". Perhaps something a little more encyclopedic? 'three days after the end of the war' or similar maybe?
    • I kinda like the slightly imprecise wording, given the end of fighting and the official surrender of Japan were a few days apart -- WDYT?
I don't object to the imprecision, but to the casualness of "just". Eg, I am happy with 'On 5 September 1945, as the war ended'; or 'On 5 September 1945, at the end of the war'; etc.

Lovely stuff. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:58, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Tks for reviewing, Gog -- replies above. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 17:24, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Second round replies above, tks again. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 19:51, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Supporting, but note the two remaining instances of "the Central Flying School". Gog the Mild (talk) 20:10, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Tks Gog. Actually you've made me re-check more sources -- seems that in its early years it was generally referred to as the Central Flying School, but in its later incarnation (WWII and after) the the was generally dropped; in either case the abbreviation is generally just CFS without the. So I've altered the captions that had "Central Flying School" alone accordingly. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 20:39, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Harry

Hi Ian, welcome to FAC. I hope this will be the first of many nominations! ;) You haven't left a lot of nits for me to pick.

  • with the minister's daughter Ruby as passenger should probably have commas either side of Ruby to make her a subclause
  • AAIC inquiries were generally held in camera In camera should probably be italicised as a Latin term.

That's it. I'll support now as I feel it meets the criteria even with those two minor imperfections. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:58, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks Harry, that's done -- for good measure I've also made Greta a subclause in Their daughter and only child Greta joined the WAAAF... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 19:54, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Space Shuttle Columbia disaster

Nominator(s): Balon Greyjoy (talk) 18:53, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster in 2003. The article's GA review was just completed. The 20th anniversary is February 1, 2023, and it has been my goal to get it to FA-status before then. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 18:53, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by Hawkeye7

I reviewed this article at GA, and believe that it meets Featured Article standard. It seems like only yesterday

Image review - pass

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:19, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • It's unclear to me why File:ColumbiaFLIR2003.png is a US government image given the Commons page states it was created by two Dutch pilots flying a helicopter. The source (a YouTube video uploaded by a non-official account) also doesn't provide any evidence to confirm these details, or alternate details. Nick-D (talk) 21:30, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    I'm not sure about this one. I'll remove it for the time being. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 12:03, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Harry

I remember this clearly. I was at school. :(

I remember it as well! One crazy thought to me is that back then the Challenger disaster seemed far away (I wasn't even born yet), and now the time since the Columbia disaster until now is longer than the time between the two disasters. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 22:52, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Is there a more illustrative image we could use for the infobox?
    What type of picture are you thinking? Unfortunately, I'm not able to find a free image of the iconic shot of debris burning in the atmosphere. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 22:52, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I think your approach to the lead for the Challenger disaster is better than trying to shoehorn the title into the opening sentence.
    Thanks! Balon Greyjoy (talk) 22:52, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • and deploy commercial,[2]: III–66  military,[2]: III–68  and scientific payloads.[2]: III–148 Are the payloads directly relevant? And if so can we consolidate the footnotes to avoid clutter?
    I consolidated the refs. I don't think the payloads are directly relevant, but they do provide context on the Space Shuttle and why a large spaceplane was used. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 22:52, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • the sensor's data was recorded to an internal recorder Recorded to a recorder?
    Changed to "data was recorded to internal storage" Balon Greyjoy (talk) 22:52, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • aileron trim changed from the predicted values from the increasing drag caused by the damagebecause of the increasing drag?
    Fixed. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 22:55, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • as well as still in the stowed positionor in the stowed position?
    Fixed. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 22:55, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The orbiter began to yaw to the left I've watched enough Air Crash Investigation to know what yaw is but it might benefit from an explanatory gloss
    I added that the orbiter was turning to the left and put "yaw" in parenthesis. Does that work? Balon Greyjoy (talk) 22:59, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • but this was not noticed by the crew or mission control Can we use active voice?
    Fixed. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 22:59, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Columbia's flight data recorder was found near Hemphill, It would be useful to know how far away this is from other locations mentioned. I'm aware that Texas is enormous but we don't have a god idea at this point in the article of how widely the debris was spread.
  • To address the problem of foam loss for the second "Return to Flight" mission Lose the scare quotes (you don't use them for the first RTF mission)
  • Is there any cultural impact to mention? Books, films, documentaries, etc? This was the news event of the year and would have been one of the defining events of the decade were it not for 9/11 and its effects. It's one of those events that people remember where they were when they heard the news.
  • What was the long-term impact on NASA besides the cancellation of the Space Shuttle programme? Did the disaster prompt a culture change? Has there been a deliberate move away from manned spaceflight or is that a coincidence?

HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:27, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Marina Bay MRT station

Nominator(s): ZKang123 (talk) 10:50, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is actually an old GA of mine, promoted back in 2020. Now, with the opening of the Thomson East Coast line, I've greatly expanded the article particularly information on train services and the artworks in the station.

Cheers to the new triple-line interchange station on the Singapore MRT network! ZKang123 (talk) 10:50, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Steelkamp

  • Does Gammon refer to Gammon Construction? If so, I think it should be linked. Steelkamp (talk) 06:43, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The body should stand on its own. That means that:
    • "The station opened on 4 November 1989 and was the southern terminus of the North South line until the NSL extension to Marina South Pier station opened in 2014." should be changed to "The station opened on 4 November 1989 and was the southern terminus of the North South line (NSL) until the NSL extension to Marina South Pier station opened in 2014." Note that Marina South Pier MRT station is linked as well. Steelkamp (talk) 06:43, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • "An extension of the CCL to this station was first announced in April 2007." should be changed to "An extension of the Circle line (CCL) to this station was first announced in April 2007." Steelkamp (talk) 06:43, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • East Coast Parkway is only mentioned once, so the acronym should be removed. Steelkamp (talk) 06:43, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Did all of the above as requested ZKang123 (talk) 09:59, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "The station became an interchange station with the CCL upon the completion of the two-station branch extension to this station from Promenade station in January 2012." This can be changed to "The station became an interchange station with the CCL upon the completion of the two-station branch extension from Promenade station in January 2012." Steelkamp (talk) 10:28, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The Thomson-East Coast Line section confuses me. Is the Thomson–East Coast line the same thing as the Thomson line? This sentence doesn't really make sense then: "On 15 August 2014, the Land Transport Authority (LTA) announced that Marina Bay station would be part of the proposed Thomson–East Coast line (TEL)." Steelkamp (talk) 10:28, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • Why is this sentence future tense: "The station will be constructed as part of Phase 3, consisting of 13 stations between the Stevens and Gardens by the Bay stations." Hasn't this already happened? Steelkamp (talk) 10:28, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Fixed future tense. Changed to "was".
    Well, the TEL was actually planned as two different lines: Thomson Line and East Region Line. Before LTA merged these two projects. ZKang123 (talk) 10:42, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • Well in that case, this sentence should be reworded: "On 15 August 2014, the Land Transport Authority (LTA) announced that Marina Bay station would be part of the proposed Thomson–East Coast line (TEL)." I suggest explicitly mentioning the merge of these two projects. Never mind, you reworded that whilst I was writing this. Steelkamp (talk) 07:38, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Hope you like this edit. Steelkamp (talk) 07:38, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • What does "link way and mined tunnels" mean? Steelkamp (talk) 07:38, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Does CD need to be in brackets when that abbreviation is not used again? Steelkamp (talk) 07:38, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Should slab link to concrete slab? Steelkamp (talk) 07:38, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • What does "earth-backed, air-backed and airtight walls and slabs" mean? Steelkamp (talk) 07:38, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "There are also provisions for a future underground pedestrian network, to be converted from a temporary maintenance facility near the station, as well as connections to future developments.[61][59] The tracks leading to the defunct facility were removed in June 2021." Could be reworded. Steelkamp (talk) 07:38, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Rectified much of the above.
    "earth-backed, air-backed and airtight walls and slabs" - I thought it should be obvious enough, basically being reinforced materials. ZKang123 (talk) 13:32, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • "The main challenges of the construction include" => "The main challenges of the construction included"
  • " one of the four stations that participated in Exercise Northstar V" - appreciate there's a link, but it wouldn't hurt to clarify what this was eg " one of the four stations that participated in Exercise Northstar V, a large-scale emergency preparedness exercise"
  • "Contract 886 for the construction of cut and cover tunnels at Marina Bay Area" - previously you wrote "cut-and-cover" with hyphens
  • "This is due to the layers of weak and strong old alluvium" - is there a wikilink for alluvium?
  • "the piles supporting the NSL tunnels have to be" => "the piles supporting the NSL tunnels had to be"
  • "As announced during a visit by Transport Minister S. Iswaran" - don't think you need to give his job title twice in two consecutive sentences. Just using his surname the second time will suffice
  • "6:25 am on Sundays and Public holidays" - no reason for capital P (in two places)
  • That's all I got - great work! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:09, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Rectified above problems. ZKang123 (talk) 10:14, 22 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Anna Lee Fisher

Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (talk) and Balon Greyjoy (talk)

This article is about Anna Fisher, one of the first six women selected to be astronauts by NASA in 1978. During her long and distinguished career at NASA, she was involved with the Space Shuttle, the International Space Station and the Orion spacecraft. This article is the fifth in the series about the first six women astronauts, following Sally Ride, Judith Resnik, Kathryn Sullivan and Rhea Seddon. Unlike those astronauts, Fisher has no biography, so its writing was more difficult. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:20, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Harry

Not sure why this doesn't seem to be attracting much attention. Let's fix that.

  • one of the astronauts supported vehicle integrated testing and payload testing at Kennedy Space Center. looks like a copy-editing error. One of the astronauts who supported?
    Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • She was a CAPCOM from January 2011 to August 2013 that's the first mention of CAPCOM; the acronym needs a gloss.
    Glossed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Her mother Elfriede had been born in Germany in 1918 but had emigratedwas born and lose the second had.
    Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • when she was sixteen years old
  • The two had returned to the United States lose the had again
    Lost. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • When she was in high school she did volunteer work at → volunteered at?
    Um okay. Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • published three article in the Inorganic Chemistry needs a copy edit
    Already done - see the talk page. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • But she saw others who had earned PhDs after six years of work but still could not find jobs, and decided to pursue medicine instead. Two "but"s in close proximity; you can probably just lose the first one.
    Changed second "but" to "yet" Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • At the time, medicine was considered a "non-traditional" career for women Is that a quote or are those scare quotes?
    A quote. "As a woman in two non-traditional women's jobs". Had to look up the article on scare quotes. Things were different in Australia, where my own university graduated its first women doctors in 1891. While women were a minority of students, nearly half studied medicine. [1] While writing about the Great War period, I found that British women were surprised that that Australia had women doctors, and even more so that they were allowed to vote in the 1916 election. So although supported by the source, I didn't want to state it in Gpedia's voice. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • the son of a United States Air Force colonel Sea of blue and neither link is directly relevant to the subject; perhaps lose the link to the USAF?
    Changed "colonel" to "officer" Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • At lunch one day he informed Bill, who was now her fiancée Whose fiancée?
    Already corrected spelling - see talk page. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • They had three weeks to assemble the required documents So they both applied? This isn't clear from the preceding text.
    Yes. Added that both of them applied. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • She attended meetings of the astronauts' spouses Who did?
    She did. I didn't want to say "Fisher" here. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Abbey decided that the five MDs of the 1978 and 1980 1978 and 1980 ... what? Also, no spaces with an emdash
    Added "astronaut selections". Removed space. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Fisher became pregnant while working as a Cape Crusader Can we reword this slightly so it doesn't sound like it happened during her NASA work?
    Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • with pilot David M. Walker and mission specialists Fisher, Gardner and Joseph P. Allen Not a good use of "with" anyway but the sentence as-structured suggests that the latter two were jointly commanding.
    Re-structured. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Fisher wanted to perform Capsule communicator (CAPCOM) Is capsule a proper noun here?
    Decapitated. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • they had gone ahead and launched the second one "gone ahead and" adds words but not meaning
    Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • if they could retrieve one satellites, and a miracle if they could retrieve two Another gremlin. One satellite or one of the satellites?
    Removed the "s". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Dale Gardner had a son a few months older than Kristin, all the others had older children That's a comma splice
    Added conjunction. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • so her daughter would know what her mother was like if Maybe shorten to just "in case"?
    Changed "if" to "in case" Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • on November 8, 1984, on what was Discovery's second mission Trim "what was"; more words for no added meaning again
    Deleted as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "by extraordinary exertions have contributed to the preservation of property from perils of all kind." MOS:LQ and you need a ref after a quote.
    Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss)
  • It was to be commanded by Michael L. Coats, with John E. Blaha Same issue as above
    Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Subsequently, the date slipped and the crew "Subsequently" has many of the same issues as "however" in implying connections that may not exist. In this case, you lose nothing by culling it.
    Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • she advised an aspiring astronaut to "study Russian" I don't think the quote marks are really necessary
    Removed quotes. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • she was involved in the development of the Flight instruments display I doubt flight is a proper noun
    De-capitated. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Can we think of a better title for the last prose section than "in popular culture"? These sections tend to become laundry lists of every mention of the subject. And on that note, I'm not sure all those appearances are notable enough to mention, but are there sources to support an overarching sentence about her public profile or appearances, so at least the list has context?
    Changed to "public appearances". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • What was it about the "iconic photo" that was so attractive? And how was it used to promote the bands?
    I'll see if I can find something. Don't hold your breath. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Note 4 contains an inline external link, which is almost always a no-no.
    Unlinked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

—There are other places the prose could be tightened but the FA criteria don't demand perfection. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:50, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Welcome back Harry. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Matangi (album)

Nominator(s): ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:03, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thought I would give people a break from endless articles on Gillingham F.C. :-) Back in 2013 I successfully nominated this article for GA but I'm not sure why I never brought it to FAC as I had done with the artist's previous studio albums. So, nine years later, here it finally is..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:03, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by FrB.TG

Comments to come soon FrB.TG (talk) 10:17, 16 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@FrB.TG: hope you are well, just wondering if you still hoped to take a look at this article....? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:50, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hi there. I was waiting for Your Power to finish their review before I start mine.
  • Be consistent with the Oxford comma. Places like "Hit-Boy, Doc McKinney, Danja, Surkin and The Partysquad" use it while others like "Bring the Noize", "Come Walk with Me", and "Y.A.L.A." don't.
  • "reportedly featured input from WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange" - reportedly indicates an expression of doubt when M.I.A. herself confirmed it. I see no reason that the artist herself would lie about something like this.
  • "The album received highly positive reviews from critics, many of whom cited it as a return to form" - whose return to form?
  • "She made a decision to" -> "She decided to"
  • However, she said it does not have "a tranquil flute massage sound." Full stop after the quotation mark after MOS:LQ.
  • "Despite an initial mixed review, Pitchfork ranked the album at number 46" - although the review and the ranking are both from Pitchfork, they came from different critics so I would leave the "mixed" part out. FrB.TG (talk) 11:35, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@FrB.TG: - all done :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:47, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Support on prose. Good work. FrB.TG (talk) 20:01, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image and media review (pass)

Unfortunately, I will not be able to do a full prose review of the article, but I still wanted to help in some way. My comments on the images and audio sample are below:

  • File:MIA Matangi Cover.png has a clear purpose in the article and a complete WP:FUR. I would encourage you to add WP:ALT text.
  • For File:Matangi.jpg, I would alter the caption to avoid starting with "The artist" as I find that phrasing to be awkward. Shortening the image caption may also help prevent it from cutting across section headings. I would encourage you to add WP:ALT text to this image as well. Everything looks appropriate for the image on the Wikimedia Commons end.
  • File:Bad Girls - MIA.ogg needs a stronger justification for inclusion. It is encouraged to keep non-free media usage to a minimum and to the best of my understanding, audio samples should only be used in an album article if they are somehow representative of the album as a whole and illustrate something the prose cannot alone (like critics saying a certain song represents a genre, production choice, etc. throughout the entire album). This audio sample is more focused on the individual song rather than the album.
  • Do you think the article would benefit from including an image of M.I.A., preferably from around the album's release?
  • This is not related to the image or audio sample, but I was surprised that the article does not a legacy or impact section (á la 1989). Was there any kind of retrospective articles or analysis of this album?

I hope that this review was helpful. Apologies for not being able to do a full prose review. To summarize my comments above, I would encourage you to add WP:ALT text to both images, revise the Matangi image caption, and either remove or provide a different rationale for the audio sample. The last two bullet points are clarification questions. Best of luck with this FAC! Aoba47 (talk) 16:08, 16 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Aoba47: - thanks for your comments. I'll address the first three in due course but re: the last one, I couldn't find anything of note. The album was not a major success (only one week in the UK albums chart), is not one that has been a major influence on any other artists as far as I can see, did not boost M.I.A. to greater success like that Taylor Swift album did for her (her career was already on a downward trajectory, TBH), and has not really been written about in any significant way since its initial period of release. Her first album was featured in a book published years later called something like "Albums You Must Hear Before You Die" but nobody really looks at this one in the same way.... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:14, 16 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you for the clarification. I was surprised because I remember "Bad Girls" just being everywhere at the time, but this is probably a case of me confusing that with the album having a greater sense of importance. If anything, that song may have a more long-lasting legacy than the album. I appreciate that you took the time to answer this question. Your explanation makes sense to me. Aoba47 (talk) 16:19, 16 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
All other points now addressed -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:26, 16 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you for addressing everything. File:M.I.A. - Festival Primavera Fauna 2013.jpg checks out to me. I would recommend archiving the source link and adding an author link to user's main Flickr account, but neither of these points are requirements. If you ever want to add an audio sample to the article, please let me know. I have briefly scanned through the article, and the Jim Carroll review would provide a solid justification for "Bad Girls" as an example of the album's "hard-bodied pop tracks" or the Alexis Petridis review identifies "Bring the Noize" as representative of the album. Either way, this passes my image and media review. Aoba47 (talk) 17:03, 16 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments Support from NØ

  • M.I.A. is addressed as a recording artist here, as a rapper and hip hop artist on previous album articles, and as a "rapper and singer" on her biography. I was curious which one you think is the most appropriate one and it should probably be consistent.
  • "Matangi did, however, top the US Dance/Electronic Albums chart" - I've been advised against the usage of "however" on some nominations
  • "The song "Y.A.L.A.", ..., was seen as a response to the slogan ..." - Was this the perception of critics? This could be more clearly stated
  • "Matangi was originally teased when M.I.A. posted a photo of herself in the studio in November 2011, on TwitPic" => "M.I.A. originally teased Matangi by posting a photo of herself in the studio on TwitPic in November 2011"
  • "Internationally, Matangi attained moderate impact on the charts, reaching number 47" - The middle part probably constitutes original research unless directly stated by a secondary source and should be removed. Which would leave this as "Internationally, Matangi reached number 47 ..."
Glad to see you take on something music related! That's all from me :-)--NØ 17:12, 16 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@MaranoFan: - all addressed! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:08, 16 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Hi Chris! With all the help you've extended in my previous two FACs I find it fair that I finally review one of yours :-) I have one up right now if you're interested!

  • Maaaany sources here need archive links. Some like the WaPo source and the RS source are dead.
    • I've replaced all the dead links. I'll keep trying to run the bot to archive the ones which aren't dead, but I don't believe this is a requirement for FAC..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:44, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Some OR concerns:
    • "M.I.A. Blasts Oprah..." does not explicitly say Maya tanked commercially compared to her previous albums. All we get is "M.I.A.'s new album /\/\ /\ Y /\ drops from No. 9 to No. 34 in its second week on the Billboard 200, selling 11,000 copies, according to Nielsen Soundscan (down 61%)."
    • The three sources cited before that do say that Maya received mixed-negative reviews as the current article implies, but none of them say that her albums before that received critical acclaim.
      • Sources replaced
  • The critical reception section could use work.
    • Too many quotations for comfort.
    • WP:RECEPTION try to consolidate similar comments from varying reviews instead of paraphrasing every review you used. In other words, summarize the reviews as a whole and not the reviews individually. For example, write "Gavin Haynes of NME and Alexis Petridis of The Guardian praised the album for its nonconformity to the characteristics of mainstream music" instead of paraphrasing whatever specific comments they made.
  • "Following this, the artist [M.I.A.]... The rapper [M.I.A.] has been..." -> let me preface this comment by saying that this is completely optional and you don't really have to implement it since a lot of it has to do with stylistic preference. I'm not a fan of WP:ELEVAR such as this one; this writing style is more for the realm of magazines and newspapers than encyclopedias. Either we use her name or her pronouns.
  • "experienced a period during which she struggled to find motivation to make music" this is a lot of words to simply say "Following this, M.I.A. struggled to find motivation for new music." Verbosity is a recurring aspect of this article - "originally teased", "the first by M.I.A.", "She eventually found initial inspiration".
  • "allegedly featured input... M.I.A. contended... who purportedly..." this is pretty strong and aggressive wording, portraying the claim that Assange helped M.I.A. with the album as something outrageous. Is there any reason why we should doubt whatever M.I.A. is saying about her own album's recording? Can't we simply say "M.I.A. said" ?
  • Pretty sure "western" and "eastern" have to be capitalized
  • What makes Metro an ok source to use here?
  • Some points on comprehensiveness:
    • Can we clarify in the prose (or in a footnote, if you wish) why M.I.A. and Diplo were in dispute? This seems like an interesting thing that begs to be explained.
    • For an album inspired heavily by Hinduism I expected to see which songs tackle the relevant themes. Which songs deal with karma, for example? Which songs incorporate the om chant? Are there any other themes explored on this album?
  • "noted for" see MOS:SAID
  • The last sentence of "Promotion" is way
    @ChrisTheDude, whoops my bad. Thanks for pointing that out. I meant to say that there are a couple unwieldy sentences in that article, such as that one. I see that you have already split the sentence I mentioned, which is a good start. ‍ ‍ Your Power 🐍 ‍ 💬 "What did I tell you?"
    📝 "Don't get complacent..."
    10:42, 21 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Ref 11 has "NME" in publisher but all other NME sources put it in work
  • "Stereogum writer" stereogum should be italicised

My primary concerns have to do with sourcing and the professional tone of the prose. I have not done a full spot check of the article references, but if anyone deems it necessary then by all means. Currently, I do not feel confident to offer my support - I am leaning oppose. Sincerely hope this gets addressed promptly - I may do a proper, full review of the article once these initial concerns are struck. ‍ ‍ Your Power 🐍 ‍ 💬 "What did I tell you?"
📝 "Don't get complacent..."
08:12, 21 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • "Despite the positive critical reception and its inclusion in several year-end lists, its first-week sales were significantly lower than those of M.I.A.'s previous album, and its chart peak was lower in all major markets" see the OR concern above. Even if this were verified, commercial success and critical success are not mutually inclusive (look at whatever Drake is doing) so there is no need to contrast the two information.
  • Adding to comprehensiveness concerns:
    • I read in passing somewhere that M.I.A. infuses a lot of her music with political commentary. Can we clarify this context in the background so the last sentence of the "Recording" section does not seem random?
    • I read the Fader interview a bit and it tells me that M.I.A. was inspired by stories of female spirituality in particular while making the album. The article needs to elaborate on which songs tackle these themes in the "Music and lyrics" section. I can see that there are lots of tracks that have not been discussed here - maybe those are the songs that employ such themes?
    • "it was eventually pushed back by M.I.A.'s label, which claimed the record was 'too positive'." What is this supposed to mean? I'd elaborate or remove it altogether.
  • The phrase "music and lyrics" is synonymous with "composition" so rename "Composition and recording" to "background and recording"
  • Mentioning that Diplo provided no contributions to the album whilst failing to mention the album's many contributors which are listed in the lead feels off
  • This article is about Matangi. It is out of place to mention that "Bad Girls" first appeared in a mixtape before this album and that that version sounded different.
  • "which led M.I.A., whose real name is Mathangi [sic] Arulpragasam, to choose the latter as the album's official name." Three things
    • Why is there a [sic] there?
      • It was meant to reflect the fact that her name is not spelt exactly the same as the album title, but I guess it's no big deal so I removed it..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:43, 21 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • M.I.A. picking the album's title should be in "background and recording", not "release and artwork" IMO.
    • The cited Fact source does not explicitly state that M.I.A. chose Matangi as the title because it matches her real name. Other sources say she does, however, so replace the Fact one.
  • I have done copyediting (diff) on the article to address sentence length, verbose wording, active voice, and flow and cohesion of paragraphs. I added some information I found from the currently cited sources as well. Please feel free to make further amendments to these edits or revert some of them if you find them unhelpful.

My stance on the article's readiness for the bronze star remains, although I am glad to see swift progress. :) ‍ ‍ Your Power 🐍 ‍ 💬 "What did I tell you?"
📝 "Don't get complacent..."
12:25, 21 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Your Power: just as an update, I believe the only things outstanding are adding some more about lyrical themes and sorting out the archive links. I tried running the IABot to archive the existing sources but it didn't do anything, don't know if I am doing something wrong......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:14, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@ChrisTheDude: it tends to do that for me as well. Unfortunately it seems that someone would have to do the archiving manually. Anyways, I have done another round of copyediting+addition of new content in light of the recent additions you made to the article. As always feel free to revert ones with which you disagree. With that, some more comments - I am really sorry that my review has dragged this far!
  • "Her fans gave her two ideas" the tweet by itself seems to indicate it's the other direction?
  • I doubt PopCrush is a high-quality source to use here, which means that the bit about the "car imagery" (which that source supports) can be cut
  • The "Reviewing the album track by track..." line is barely understandable and IMO does not add anything of value to the article.
  • Re. third paragraph of reception section: again, the use of "noted" here is discouraged. Also I have difficulty tracking what that sentence is supposed to mean.
That should be all, hopefully Face-smile.svg Appreciate all the effort undertaken to tidy up this article. A bit of a tangent, but I've seen a lot of memes with the caption "live fast die young bad girls do it well" within the past two years, and it only occurred to me where that line came from after reading this article. Huh. The more you know. ‍ ‍ Your Power 🐍 ‍ 💬 "What did I tell you?"
📝 "Don't get complacent..."
13:51, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
All of those last few points addressed -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 22:02, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Your Power: I think I have addressed every point above to the best of my ability, would you be able to re-visit.....? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:03, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hi @ChrisTheDude - you really worked your butt off with this article, wow! You deserve your 10s - the article has improved significantly compared to when I first arrived here! The only thing holding back a support from me is this bit from the lead: " 'Bad Girls' ... became one of M.I.A.'s most successful singles." That requires explicit attribution somewhere in the prose and I just don't see it. As much as I want to see the archived versions of the source links, I understand that it is beyond the scope of my intended prose review; thus it won't really stop me from supporting once the last concern is addressed. ‍ ‍ Your Power 🐍 ‍ 💬 "What did I tell you?"
📝 "Don't get complacent..."
05:30, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Your Power: - I just deleted that claim as upon reflection I think it was questionable (it was only her fourth biggest hit in the UK, for example) and re-worked the sentence -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:35, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Alright, that last pressing concern has been addressed! After a lot of reading and commenting I am confident to say I can now support this article based on the prose quality and comprehensiveness. Nice work! Hope to see you work on more music articles soon; love to see you branching out into new topics. Face-smile.svg ‍ ‍ Your Power 🐍 ‍ 💬 "What did I tell you?"
📝 "Don't get complacent..."
07:46, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Your Power: thanks for your support. Just to note, while I haven't done much related to music here at FAC, over at FLC I have successfully promoted over 80 music-related lists :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:49, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
DAMN. When I tell you my jaw dropped upon seeing that number... I see notifs about your FLs passing in places like the WP:SIGNPOST, but I was not aware you've been doing that for a while. ‍ ‍ Your Power 🐍 ‍ 💬 "What did I tell you?"
📝 "Don't get complacent..."
07:53, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Japanese fire-bellied newt

Nominator(s): An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 01:22, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about a species of newt endemic to Japan. It is found throughout much of the archipelago, in a wide range of habitats. It is rated as near-threatened, and its population is at risk of capture for the pet trade and human development. This is my first FAC nomination, so please forgive my inexperience. This was previously successfully nominated for GA status, and both before and during the review, I went to great lengths to include as much relevant information and context as possible. An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 01:22, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Coordinator note: Just flagging up that as a first-time nomination this will need a spot check for source to text fidelity. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:45, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
Is it better now? An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 11:39, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Brehms_Tierleben._Allgemeine_kunde_des_Tierreichs_(1911)_(20226567219).jpg: is a more specific tag available? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:13, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The uploader states that it is public domain, but not on what grounds. What would your suggestion be? An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 11:39, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The artist's name (Josef Fleischmann) can be seen in the lower right, and he appeared to have died in 1925[2], making this public domain, as he died more than 70 years ago and it was published in Europe. So you should add the same tag as here:[3] FunkMonk (talk) 12:50, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done. An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 13:42, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Can't see a saved edit, so added[4] it myself. FunkMonk (talk) 19:08, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you, I could've sworn it saved. An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 21:48, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by Henni147

This is my first FAC review for an article in the biology category, so it's a bit of uncharged territory for me, but I'd like to leave some comments. As a non-specialist, I can attest that the article is reader-friendly and easy to understand.

  • Structure: It might be smart to make the headings and section order uniform with this article about the Alpine newt, which already has featured status. This would improve the layout consistency across Gpedia.
That's something I would normally wholeheartedly support, but I think they are already quite similar, and making them more similar might break up the article more than necessary. As for the heading names, throughout animal articles in general, "Lifecycle and behaviour" is much less standard than "Behavior and ecology", same goes for "Captivity" vs "In captivity" and "Threats and conservation" vs "Conservation". If anything, the other article should be changed. Still, I rearranged the lead to resemble that of the other article more.
  • Bundling of sub-sections: This is rather a matter of taste, but I prefer to merge sub-sections that consist of only one short paragraph to one proper section. This reduces the amount of empty space around the text, which is crucial for print versions of the article.
Yes, that was brought up during the GA review. I've trimmed it even further, so hopefully that's good enough (let me know if you would recommend even more).
  • Abbreviations: In scientific and encyclopedic articles, it is generally discouraged to use abbreviations at the beginning of a sentence like "C." at the beginning of the section "Evolution and hybridization". If possible, I recommend to rephrase those sentences a bit. Also, according to MOS:1STOCC, special terms should be introduced in the full version at their first occurrence like "DVM". Better write here: Doctor of Veterinary Medicine Lianne McLeod described them as "low-maintenance", noting that captive newts enjoy bloodworms, ...
I changed it as you suggested for both instances, so it should be okay.
  • Linking: According to MOS:OVERLINK, common words like "forest" or "Japan" shouldn't be linked. However, I would place a link to the article habitat in the lead, which is a biological term and may not be known by casual readers. Also, try to avoid side-by-side links like "newt endemic" in the first sentence of the lead.
I removed links from some simple words, and added one to habitat. I also removed the link to newt, since rewording to keep it and the nearby link separate would have looked strange.
  • Images: All images need alternative texts for the accessbility with screenreaders. If the caption sufficiently describes the image, add |alt=refer to caption. Also, change the parameter image: to File: and remove fixed image sizes like the "250px" from the following image:
    [[image:Cynops pyrrhogaster (under s4).jpg|thumb|right|250px|Japanese fire-belled newt on its back, with the bright red ventral region clearly visible]]
Done (all of the current captions should work as alt text, so I used them.)
  • Referencing: Online sources should be archived with the Wayback Machine or a comparable service. I can help with that if needed. Otherwise, the use of inline citations and sourcing looks good. According to Earwig's copyvio detector, there is no serious copy-violation of text (3.8% similarity at max). I yet have to take a closer look at the citation of print sources.
I thought IABot could do that automatically, but it hasn't been working for me. I may require assistance. It might've been because I was shy of my thousandth edit, which I just achieved. It worked now.

That's it from me at first look. I may give a more detailed feedback about single sections and citations later, but this will take a bit more time. Overall, the article looks promising and I think that with some adjustments it has the potential to be promoted for FAC. Good job. Henni147 (talk) 10:24, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Henni147 thank you very much. I've replied to all your comments. An anonymous username, not my real name 22:39, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Excellent. Thank you very much for your detailed comments and quick adjustments! The article structure looks much better already, and if you say that these headings are more the standard, then I fully support to keep them as they are. I will take a closer look at the changes later. Henni147 (talk) 08:45, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild

Recusing to review. I will make copy edits as I go. If you are unhappy with any, could you discuss them here? Thanks.

  • "They are 8 to 15 cm (3.1 to 5.9 in) long." Perhaps 'Adults are ...'?
Could I bring your attention to "Do not use graphics or complex templates on FAC nomination pages" followed by the reasons why at the top of the FAC main page. Just indent your response and the reviewer will pick it up. Thanks. :-) Gog the Mild (talk) 00:02, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you for enlightening me. I fixed it. An anonymous username, not my real name 00:51, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "They readily consumed TTX-laced bloodworms when offered, not showing any symptoms after ingesting the poison". is it known if they were subsequently found to contain tetrodotoxin?
I'm a little confused. Could you rephrase?
It seems that it has been established that newts who did not consume TTX contained little or none of it. You report that this experiment establishes that they will consume TTX and not show ill effects. Does the TTX then stay in their system? The point being that this would be a strong indicator that the hypothesis that TTX in the newts all comes from diet is correct.
I added not only that, but further details on the results of the experiment that should bring everything together,
  • "especially the major ones". Er, what does "especially" actually mean in this context?
As opposed to Japan's smaller islands, some of which they are not present on. Could you suggest a reword?
'including all of the major ones'.
That doesn't completely work, as they are absent from Hokkaido (which may or may not be part of Mainland Japan depending on how it's defined), so I removed it entirely in favor of specific islands (Honshu, Shikoku, and Kyushu). I also tweaked a similar statement in the body.
  • "and potentially the eggs of their own species." Why "potentially"? This is not used in the main article.
I didn't want to give it undue weight by implying that it was a particularly major food source (as it might appear that way due to how the lead is worded). However, I suppose there's no real alternative to your suggestion for consistency's sake, so I did it.
  • "before splitting into four distinct varieties throughout its range". Do you mean that? Or does each variety occupy a different range?
I mean that the range of the species can be divided into the ranges of four groups that all belong to that species. I don't particularly see a need to change this one, as the MOS usually allows mildly vague wording in the lead, which can then be fully explained in the body.
There is a difference between vague and misleading. How would you feel about 'before splitting into four distinct varieties each with a mostly separate range' or similar?
That's a very good suggestion. I used that.
  • "although officially, all four varieties compose a single species." Perhaps 'Although all four are considered to compose a single species"?
The study was not entirely clear, but it suggested that the clades may be different species, even though they are taxonomically recognized as being a single one. I reworded it to be less ambiguous while still keeping the original message.
  • "Currently, their population on a decline". Missing word(s)
'Currently, their population is on a decline' perhaps. A verb is always useful ;-) .
Ohhhh, I did not notice the word you were talking about at first. Thanks, I fixed it.
  • "may in fact belong to a different genus." Do we need "in fact"? I mean, might a reader otherwise suppose it wasn't a fact?
  • "recognizes sixteen total synonyms for Cynops pyrrhogaster." Delete "total".
  • Could "clade" be linked at first mention.
  • "As time progressed". Consider → 'Later'.
I don't want to suggest they all split at once, which the word "later" seems to do. Any possible alternatives?
Ah. Point taken. Let me think on. If I don't get back to you, leave it as it is.
  • "The northern diverged first, at around 9.68 million years ago, then the central (around 8.23 MYA), then finally the southern and western (around 4.05 MYA)". Why are the last two dates in brackets and the first not?
Removed from all.
  • "to form a hybrid zone". Perhaps a very brief explanation of what this is? (Per MOS:NOFORCELINK: "Do use a link wherever appropriate, but as far as possible do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence. The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links.")
  • "and requires immediate protection". Non-NPOV value judgement. Consider rephrasing.
  • Section headers: consider deleting "and hybridization" and "Atsumi-Chita variant".
I was hesitant, but it actually looks quite nice. Done.
  • "Smaller juveniles have ..." All of them, or just those from the smaller islands.
The linked source happens to be about a small island population, but its observations appear to apply to all populations. I moved several things around for better clarity.
  • Why is "ventral region" defined inline at the second mention, rather than the first.
  • "vomeropalatine". Needs defining or explaining.
It's a rather odd term that I can't find a good definition for, but it should be better now.
  • "A smooth ridge runs from their nape to their tail. It is 8 to 15 cm (3.1 to 5.9 in) long." In the lead you state that this is the total body length, not the length of the ridge. Is the range given for the napes of females or all specimens? If it is for adults, this needs stating.
I think there was some confusion here, but I've fixed it in the article.
  • "Its range has a small amount of overlap". Does "Its" refer to the northern or the central clade?
  • "forests, grasslands, shrublands, wetlands, lakes, marshes, and cultivated environments." The Wikilinks seem a little random. Are you assuming that a reader will not understand what a marsh is, but will be familiar with a grassland?
Would you prefer I eliminate the current ones or add more?
I am a fan of WP:OVERLINK. And suspect that most readers can work out what "marshes" etc are.
  • Gray, 1850; add the oclc. (3183646) And if this is a book, the title should be in title case.
  • Boie, 1827; ditto. (727216017)
  • References: if works are in foreign languages, these should be specified.
Tschudi appeared to be the only instance of an unspecified foreign language work, so I corrected that.
  • Tschudi: oclc. (964903266)

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:15, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Gog the Mild, excellent suggestions. I have implemented all except a few I would like your recommendation on. I will get to your newer set soon. An anonymous username, not my real name 23:51, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "fertilized one-by-one via the spermatophores they carry." Suggest "via" → 'from'.
  • "in a full breeding season." Suggest deleting "full".
  • "or they will drown". Suggest deleting "will".
  • "In captive settings, they are known to readily eat mosquito larvae, brine shrimp, earthworms, and each other." Why is this under "life cycle" and not "Diet"?
  • "changes in the small animals around the ponds that they dwell in." Around the ponds, or in them?
The source actually says "in and around", I just noticed. Fixed it.
  • "with one example of a potential serpentine predator being Gloydius blomhoffii." I don't see what this random-looking piece of information adds.
  • Link both adaptation and adapted.

A fine article, I enjoyed it. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:29, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Good to hear :) I think I've gotten everything. An anonymous username, not my real name 00:51, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Mochida, 2009: all caps titles are not retained when used on Gpedia.
  • A stunning debut at FAC. More than happy to support. The first of many nominations I hope. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:41, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you very much for your support and encouragement. An anonymous username, not my real name 17:07, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Vanamonde

Looking forward to reading this. I will make some minor copyedits along the way, please feel free to contest them. Vanamonde (Talk) 00:40, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • this source, which you cite, has if I'm not mistaken a more complete phylogeny of the near relatives. Among other things, it shows the non-monophyly of the genus. I suggest using it instead, unless you have a strong reason for using the 2001 study?
  • Independent of the above, I think the caption should include the source.
  • The same source mentions the extreme genetic divergence within the taxon; they stop short of calling them separate species, but this may be worth discussing anyway.
Added a brief mention.
  • The same source also mentions that the islands were likely not isolated from the mainland during the probable spread; suggest including this.
Mentioned it.
  • Suggest moving the fragment about threat status from taxonomy to conservation.
  • It occurs to me that the infobox image is a lot less clear than some of the others; suggest swapping and/or cropping + scaling up.
An attempt was made, and it looks marginally better, but that's about as good as I can get it.
  • "was thought to be extinct, however it was later revealed" some vagueness here; who thought it extinct, when was it determined to be the same as a different group, and how?
The source doesn't mention exactly who first thought it was extinct, but I added everything else.
  • It is common to report SVL in reptiles, in addition to or in place of full body length, is it not? It would be nice to have if available.
I found some interesting information on that, which I included.
  • "It has the northernmost range of any Cynops species" This is probably okay, but given the non-monophyly of the genus, begs the question if this is still true for the clade including all members.
According to the source, the other species are all found in either southern China or the Ryukyu Islands, so it would be true for all members. I added this.
  • Section on reproduction has some information on size that may be better placed in the description.
It's a passing mention that is now included in the description anyway thanks to my other changes. Since the information around it is about maturation, which is relevant to life cycle, I think it's best to keep it.
  • Fascinating information on antipredator behavior. If showing the belly is not viable on the mainland, what do they do instead?
Unfortunately, the source doesn't really say. The best I can find is this sentence: " This fatal mistake was often observed in laboratory trials; newts that reacted to a mammalian predator with the immobile display lost the opportunity to escape and were killed". This would suggest that escaping is the usual alternative, but it doesn't mention them actually doing so.
  • "preventing predation by both birds and mammals" that isn't accurate, is it. Toxins don't prevent predation, they make predation harmful, discouraging it over longer timescales.
  • The "research" section strikes me as somewhat haphazard at the moment. I suggest 1) opening with the paragraph about them as model organisms, and 2) including in each paragraph the significance of that particular research (for instance, why are they a model organism? to study regeneration, presumably, but you never know).
Implemented, although you should probably take a look to make sure it's as you envisioned.
  • I suggest, though this isn't needed, that "in captivity" and "research" be combined; elements of the former topic are already included in the latter, and they are both short. You could call it "interaction with humans" or similar, and there is ample precedent for such sections in FAs.
That is a very good idea. I did so.

That's it for me for this round. This is an admirable effort, and I expect to support eventually. I do wonder if the source material has been mined completely; see comments above, this source, and these, which I just found. Many of the scholarly articles are admittedly dense, and if they're only using the newt as a model organism their utility here is likely to be limited; but I suggest examining the heavyweight studies once again. Vanamonde (Talk) 00:40, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Replied to all comments. I will look into adding extra sources if you can think of any important information that's missing. An anonymous username, not my real name 02:50, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I forgot to mention, but I've requested a cladogram be made for the first point, which I'm waiting on currently. An anonymous username, not my real name 02:52, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts

Nominator(s): JOEBRO64 14:16, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

What do you get when you throw a niche-but-beloved late '90s franchise, cars, Legos, and infuriated fanboys into a blender? You get Rare's misguided masterpiece, Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts. This honest-to-God attempt to innovate in a genre that'd stagnated outside of Mario ultimately did more to kill the series it was attempting to resurrect than it did to, well, resurrect it, but it's seen a bit of a renaissance in recent years thanks to its inclusion in Rare Replay. Nowadays, you're more likely to hear about how it was unfairly maligned and innovative, offering a massive amount of constructive freedom a full three years before Minecraft's proper release.

This article has been a GA for several years, but I recently gave it a major overhaul as part of a personal project I've started and I believe it's the most comprehensive resource for the game on the internet. I hope you enjoy the article! JOEBRO64 14:16, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comment from DecafPotato

Hello. I am not able to perform the FA review, but St Mary's Street, Tenby - - 873512.jpg and File:Saint-Malo remparts 001.JPG are missing alt text. Otherwise, it looks good, and good luck with the FA! DecafPotato (talk) 19:47, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

DecafPotato, there is alt text for those images already present. Not sure why it isn't showing up in the toolbox? EDIT: fixed it, just had to separate the two alts. JOEBRO64 01:30, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I went to try splitting the alt text, and you already did it. Nice. The issue might be something to do with the multiple image template? Idk. DecafPotato (talk) 01:35, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Don't use fixed px size
  • The FURs for File:Banjo-Kazooie_Nuts_and_Bolts_gameplay.jpg and File:Banjo-Kazooie,_Nuts_%26_Bolts_gameplay_2.jpg are largely identical - if multiple non-free screenshots are to be included, each needs a stronger justification
  • File:Grant_Kirkhope.png: is there no non-filtered image available? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:19, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • Unfortunately, no—that's the only free-use picture of Kirkhope available. JOEBRO64 14:45, 16 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Nikkimaria: responded above, thank you for the image review! JOEBRO64 14:45, 16 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Artemy Vedel

Nominator(s): Amitchell125 (talk) 07:44, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about a Ukrainian composer, little known outside his own country, who composed mainly liturgical works based on Ukrainian folk melodies, and who made an important contribution in the music history of Ukraine. The article received peer review comments from Gerda Arendt and Tim riley. All feedback comments would be, as always, much appreciated. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:44, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments Support from Tim riley

I suggested at PR that a section on recordings could be added. I still think it would be a useful addition, but a quick check on existing life-and-works FAs about composers shows that some, including such big fish as Mahler and Mendelssohn, have been elevated to FA without one, and so it must I think be accepted that the lack of one here is not cause for objection on grounds of FA criterion 1b (comprehensiveness).

@Tim riley: I need to be pointed in the right direction with this one. There lots of recordings of Vedel's music that could be listed, but the information about them all comes from commercial websites, and there doesn't seem to be any reliable source that provides the information I need. The detailed WorldCat information available is already in the article's Authority Control, so there's not need to duplicate it higher up. Thoughts? Amitchell125 (talk) 19:27, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

A few minor comments on other points:

  • I assume the italicised sentence in the second para of the lead is inadvertent?
Yes, now sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:32, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • There is a double full stop at the end of the lead.
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:33, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • In the last para of the Imprisonment and death section, in "There was uncertainty about exactly when Vedel died ... The cause of Vedel's death ..." the second mention of Vedel's name could with advantage be replaced by a pronoun.
Agreed, done. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:34, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • In the Musical style section "Musicologists consider Vedel ... " is rather a sweeping assertion. The authors of the cited article so consider him, but that is not really enough to justify the implication of unanimity here.
Implication now gone. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:38, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The last sentence is something of an anticlimax: "In 2016 the Ukrainian government announced its intention to commemorate the 250th anniversary of Vedel's birth in 2017". The reader may be forgiven for asking "And did it? How?" If you don't know and can't find out I think you should either say so or omit the existing sentence.
I think I've spent more time looking for how his anniversary was commemorated than was actually spent commemorating it. Sentence deleted accordingly. Amitchell125 (talk) 12:15, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'll look in again with a view to supporting. – Tim riley talk 10:32, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for these comments Tim, and I'll do some research on recordings, with a view to adding to the article if possible. Amitchell125 (talk) 10:42, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
If the FAC coordinators are happy for me to contribute to the article having already supported its elevation (Ian, Gog or colleagues, what say you?) I shall be happy to run up a Recordings section for your consideration. Alternatively, if you fancy trying your hand at it, follow the link to WorldCat I put in my postscript to my comments at the peer review. Tim riley talk 19:37, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Of course, not a problem. Go for it. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:22, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you, Gog. I'll run up a draft section on recordings in the next day or so on the usual lines, for the nominator's consideration. Tim riley talk 22:45, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Alas having waded through the numerous entries in WorldCat for recordings of music by Vedel I find they mostly consist of multiple reissues of two recordings of a couple of pieces. I can't find anything like enough to base a Recordings section on, and I really must apologise for supposing there would be. Sorry, everyone, and I unconditionally withdraw the suggestion that we can have a Recordings section at all. Tim riley talk 22:14, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
After a final read-through I am happy to add my support. Good prose, clear exposition, evidently balanced and well sourced. The illustrations are no doubt as good as possible for this out-of-the-way subject. The article seems to me to meet the FA criteria. Tim riley talk 22:01, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support from Gerda

I am happy with the changes made during the PR and support. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:04, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:38, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Артемвй_Ведель,_меморіальна_дошка.JPG: as Ukraine does not have freedom of panorama, this needs a tag for the original work. Similarly File:Dvoeznamennik_17c_GIM.jpg, File:Дніпрові_кручі_у_Києві.jpg
  • File:Артемвй_Ведель,_меморіальна_дошка.JPG is of a modern sculpture, which appears to mean the image cannot be used. Did you have a particular tag in mind?
2008. (citation used in article). Did you have a particular tag in mind?
No - I agree without more information it seems unlikely the sculpture is PD. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:45, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Image removed, it's place now taken by the commemorative stamp. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:46, 21 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
File:Дніпрові кручі у Києві.jpg - own work by Alina Vozna, tagged accordingly.
The own work tag covers the photo - what is missing is something for the architecture. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:45, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nikkimaria: Understood, but as the buildings date from the 11th-18th centuries. I, is there a specific tag available? I have searched for the correct PD tag for old buildings (including anything in photographs in FA architecture articles), without any success. Please, what is the correct tag I have to use? Amitchell125 (talk) 21:38, 21 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
If you can confirm that all of the architecture pictured was erected in the 18th century or earlier, then {{PD-US-expired}} would work. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:04, 22 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 09:16, 22 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
File:Dvoeznamennik_17c_GIM.jpg - now done. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:13, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Pre-1811_map_of_Podil_(Kyiv)_-_cropped.svg: which rationale is believed to apply for Ukrainian status, and what is the status of the original work in the US?
Not sure, image removed. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:41, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Kharkov's_Collegium_XVIII-XIX.jpg needs a US tag
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:20, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:09, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Early 19th 20th century, or earlier. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:37, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Okay, but where though? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:45, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Kharkiv. It was published in the supplement to Dmytro Bahaliy's 2-volume История города Харькова за 250 лет его существования (1655-1905) (History of the City of Kharkov: 250 years of existence (1655-1905)), which was written in the first two decades of the 20th century.
When was that work published? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:42, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
1912 (see link). Amitchell125 (talk) 10:32, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Кирилівський_монастир_на_мал._Ф._Солнцева,_1843.jpg is incorrectly tagged, as is File:Vedel_-_manuscript_of_Concert_No._12_(first_page).jpg
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:19, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
For the former, the date given in the description is both more recent than 100 years ago and after 1927 - is that not accurate? If no, when and where was this first published, and what is the author's date of death? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:09, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The artist, Fedor Solntsev, died in 1892. I have corrected the date given on the WikiCommons page, as 1943 is an error. The tag is (I believe) correct. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:51, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
When and where was it first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:45, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It's a painting, so I'm unsure if a publication date (other than 1843, the date it was painted, as stated on the WikiCommons page) is appropriate. Also, I don't think the place it was painted is known, but it is likely to have been somewhere associated with the artist (e.g. his studio), and I don't think this information is relevant. Am I incorrect?
You are correct - what we care about is publication, as defined here. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:42, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Nikkimaria: I may have found what was needed—this link states that the watercolour appeared in an 1843 publication, now held in the V. G. Zabolotny State Scientific Architectural and Construction Library in Kyiv. I've amended the text in WikiCommons to explain this. Amitchell125 (talk) 09:43, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:Кошиць_Олександр.jpg needs a US tag and author date of death
Tag sorted, the author is unknown, so I have put this. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:05, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:09, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
In Kyiv, then part of the Russian Empire. Koshetz is wearing his seminary clothes, so it would have been taken there at the time he was a student. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:59, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That helps to identify when the image was created, but we need to determine publication in order to assess US status. Is that known? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:45, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I've looked hard, but nothing has come up, so for the moment the publication date is not known. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:00, 21 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Okay, what is the first publication that has been identified? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:04, 22 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I have not been able to find any examples of books that includes the photograph, only online examples, as listed in WikiCommons. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:23, 22 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Okay. The current tagging is based on the work being published before 1917 - if we can't demonstrate that, the tag will need to be changed to something that can be supported. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:42, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
As I don't know which tag you might be referring to, I've replaced the image with one that I believe has no issues (this), although I would have preferred to use the one of him as a younger man. Did you have a specific tag in mind? Amitchell125 (talk) 09:26, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • File:UA055-17.jpg: the Ukrainian tag states coins and banknotes are PD, but not stamps. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:26, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Is c:Commons:Copyright_rules_by_territory/Ukraine#Stamps incorrect? Amitchell125 (talk) 06:52, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hm. Probably worth amending the tag's language to reflect the information provided there. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:09, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I can try and get that done, but it's not something that needs to be done for this nomination, is it? Amitchell125 (talk) 09:04, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:45, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by Smerus

Nice article - but a couple of points:

a) the lead seems to me rather 'top-heavy' and over-detailed - you may want to consider thinning it out. Do we need, for example, Koshetz's comment on the difficulty of performance quoted twice in the article?

Agreed - lead section trimmed down a bit. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:52, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

b) Where you are sourcing articles/websites in Ukrainian, you should make it clear in the citation that the original is in Ukrainian, and, most important of all, you must check your translations. Maybe you are using Google Translate? As examples

1) 'ТЕЛЕПЕРЕДАЧА «ОЧИМА КУЛЬТУРИ». № 28. НЕСУСВІТНІЙ АРТЕМ ВЕДЕЛЬ' does not translate as ' "Television "through the eyes of culture" – No 28 Non-world Artem Knowledge" but as ' "TV show "Through the Eyes of Culture" – No 28 The unworldly Artem Vedel"
2) "Ведель Артем Лук'янович – композитор, диригент, співак, скрипаль" does not translate as "Artem Lukyanovich in charge: composer, conductor, singer, violinist" but as (in English standard name order) "Artem Lukyanovich Vedel: composer, conductor, singer, violinist"

Please go through your sources and check the translations are accurate - otherwise this article cannot merit FA status.

Best, --Smerus (talk) 11:02, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Ouch! I thought I'd checked these, I have a friend who will help with this, I'll let you know when the Ukrainian has been re-checked. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:02, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Citations in other languages all noted. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:10, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Smerus: Corrections to translations from other languages into English have been done—with thanks to Ата to helping here. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:52, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Great, I am therefore happy to support the article as FA. --Smerus (talk) 13:57, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Your Power

Nominator(s): ‍ ‍ Your Power 🐍 ‍ 💬 "What did I tell you?"
📝 "Don't get complacent..."
09:42, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

"Try not to abuse your power / I know we didn't choose to change / You might not wanna lose your power / but power isn't pain."

Content warning - this article is about a song dealing with abuse of all kinds. Most importantly, sexual abuse - there is a focus on older men who sexually exploit young women. The lyrics are simple, yet its power lies in its message's simplicity. It's very political (many critics drew connections to #MeToo), but it's also personal (it references Eilish's own experiences with abuse as a child), highlighting the universality of power imbalances. It was considered one of the best songs of 2021, as well as one of Eilish's best songs. Read the article and you will see why!

Now for the meta-commentary - this is the third Billie Eilish-related article I have taken to FAC and fourth overall! This song also is where I got my username, and is one of my favourite songs by her. "Your Power" holds a special place in my heart, and to see its article grow so much has been extremely cool :D Can't wait for what you think. ‍ ‍ Your Power 🐍 ‍ 💬 "What did I tell you?"
📝 "Don't get complacent..."
09:42, 12 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Media review by Sammi Brie

There are four freely licensed images, all with CC licenses or cropped from CC licenses, and album art with an NFUR. All images have adequate alt text. There is also a 15-second song sample with NFUR.

This article passes on media review. Sammi Brie (she/her • tc) 06:31, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you for the prompt review on the audio + photos, @Sammi Brie :) ‍ ‍ Your Power 🐍 ‍ 💬 "What did I tell you?"
📝 "Don't get complacent..."
12:16, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by FrB.TG

  • "In it, she sings alone" - in it doesn't sound very encyclopedic.
    • How so? "it" refers to the video, i.e. "in the video". Nothing seems off about it.
  • Finneas is over-linked in the infobox. I suppose it might have been done intentionally because it does not match his real (full) name in the songwriting credits.
    • You would be correct in that assumption
  • "Eilish revealed" - I suggest not using words like reveal as it has an unencyclopedic, suspense-dissolving effect.
    • Changed wording
  • "Set for release 3 months later, on July 30" -> "Released (three months later) on July 30". Three months later in parenthesis because I think you could even leave that part out but it's optional.
    • Removed "July 30" instead of "three months later" to avoid overwhelming readers with specific dates. I kept "set for release" because it maintains the section's chronology better than saying "released on July 30" - we'd be jumping to April 27 then weeeeeks later to July 30 then baaaack again to April 28 in that case. By saying "set for release" we can just easily gloss over that future date, which is better because the album's actual release is irrelevant for this article about a song.
  • "She talked to the interviewer, Laura Snapes, about how her life had greatly changed since she was a child, the negative aspects of fame, and her struggles with self-acceptance." This reads rather awkwardly because three things are listed; the first one contains a verb but the rest don't ("talked about how her life changed..., the negative aspects...").
    • The list has been modified to fix the parallelism
  • Music and lyrics section lists the song as a folk ballad but the infobox only folk. I suggest specifying it in the infobox.
    • "Ballad" is not a genre, which is why the infobox says only folk.
  • "stripped-back" is rather informal. If it was used like that in the source(s), I suggest using it in quotes.
    • Changed wording
  • "Other critics compared it to songs by the band America[34] or singer Phoebe Bridgers" - why not and instead of or?
    • Fair enough, that's better
  • "She sings about being gaslit" - gaslighting is colloquial.
    • Removed the word

More soon. FrB.TG (talk) 12:14, 21 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for taking this FAC, @FrB.TG! Glad to come across you in enwiki again. And congrats on getting Alejandro (song) promoted - seems like getting Fame Monster song articles the bronze star has become your long-term project in the encyclopedia? If so, I wish you well in the endeavour Face-smile.svg ‍ ‍ Your Power 🐍 ‍ 💬 "What did I tell you?"
📝 "Don't get complacent..."
13:21, 21 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you. Although that is was the plan, I'm not sure how much longer I can keep up. For one thing, I don't have some of the resources to access restricted sources that I once had. For another, I don't have that much time for such an ambitious endeavor. -FrB
  • "Your Power" has received accolades for its lyricism. I would get rid of the has as it's unlikely the song will win any more awards at this point.
    • Extremely good point.
  • She urged viewers to "protect our young women at all costs", and she reminded them
    • Removed
  • "Worldwide, it sold about 8,600 digital copies and was streamed about 64.2 million times." It's not clear if this is first-week sales or overall sales (which I doubt).
    • Considering the presence of "during its opening week" I assumed that folks would get that the entire paragraph was about first-week stats. Though thanks for pointing out this ambiguity. Hopefully that part is clearer.
  • "22.2 million", "9.6 million", "4,500 digital"... - WP:NBSP
    • Added the template
  • "It also entered the top 10 in Australia"
    • I'd prefer keeping the word so that the paragraph's transition from the song's UK chart performance to the song's AU chart performance does not come abruptly.
  • "Like with the music video, she performed the song in the middle of a desert." Was it actually in the middle of a desert or rather a stage that was designed to look like one?
    • The sources say, plainly, that it was in a desert, so I'm confident that they filmed in an actual desert. From watching the video, I don't notice anything in the background that suggests a backdrop.
  • "The venue where the video took place was the Biltmore Hotel in Los Angeles" -> "The video took place at the venue Biltmore Hotel in Los Angeles"
  • " selected to convey the intimate, Old Hollywood aesthetic that she envisioned" - redundant FrB.TG (talk) 11:32, 22 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • Addressed both, having trimmed the sentence for concision.

I believe all of your comments above have been addressed, @FrB.TG. Feel free to read through the article again if you remain unsure of your final stance. Thank you once again for the helpful comments! ^^; ‍ ‍ Your Power 🐍 ‍ 💬 "What did I tell you?"
📝 "Don't get complacent..."
10:41, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support good work. FrB.TG (talk) 17:30, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • "At the age of 18, Billie Eilish won five awards at the 62nd Annual Grammy Awards held in 2020. These include Album of the Year for her debut studio album, When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go? (2019)" => "At the age of 18, Billie Eilish won five awards at the 62nd Annual Grammy Awards held in 2020, including Album of the Year for her debut studio album, When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go? (2019)" (just reads a bit more tightly)
    • Not done; there are 4 almost evenly-spaced commas, and while the sentence does read more tightly, it also feels more unwieldy and hard to read.
  • "Eilish disclosed she would begin" => "Eilish disclosed that she would begin"
  • "Eilish announced the album's title" => "Eilish announced that the album's title"
    • Not done for both. The following sentences read okay without the additional word.
  • "Set for release 3 months later" => "Set for release three months later"
    • Right, mos:num. done
  • "Acoustic guitars serve as the song's instruments" - the credits also mention bass, synths and percussions, so the guitars aren't the only instruments and therefore this should probably be "Acoustic guitars serve as the song's main instruments" or "Acoustic guitars serve as the song's primary instruments"
    • Done - that was an astute catch!
  • "On the singles chart by the Australian Recording Industry Association (ARIA)" => "On the singles chart published by the Australian Recording Industry Association (ARIA)"
    • Definitely reads better this way
  • Think that's all I got - great work! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:05, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:38, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Dime Mystery Magazine

Nominator(s): Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:52, 10 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This article is about the magazine that started the weird menace genre in 1933 -- a subgenre of horror which appears to be about supernatural events but isn't. In these stories, the horrible things that happen to the protagonist always turn out to be the evil machinations of a crazed scientist, or of a greedy relative who is after an inheritance, or something along those lines. Pulp publisher Harry Steeger was looking for a way to improve sales of one of his magazines, and created the new subgenre after he visited the Grand Guignol in Paris. Other magazines soon appeared to cash in on the new market. Weird menace stories only lasted a few years; by the early 1940s Dime Mystery was publishing unexceptional detective fiction. It lasted until 1950, close to the end of the pulp era. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:52, 10 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • Apologies in advance if this is a silly question. I have a question about this sentence: Stories based on supernatural events were rare, but did occasionally appear. The lead previously established the magazine's stories had supernatural elements despite ending with more mundane resolutions. If this sentence is connected to the magazine, isn't this a contradiction? Is this sentence connected to the Grand Guignol theater? If so, I think clarification is necessary. It reads more like a blanket statement so I'd tie it down to something to provide more specificity.
    Weird menace stories never had supernatural events; Dime Mystery did publish the occasional story with a supernatural explanation, but mostly it published weird menace (during 1933-1938, anyway). However, weird menace stories appear to be supernatural stories till the ending -- e.g. a ghost is revealed to be a fake. When I was telling my wife about this she said "You mean like Scooby-Doo?" and that's actually pretty accurate. So what I was trying to convey with "something that appeared to be supernatural, but which would ultimately be revealed to have an everyday explanation" was that these stories were not supernatural stories. But then since there were occasional stories that really were supernatural, I felt that had to be mentioned in the lead too. I'm open to rephrasing this if we can come up with a better way to say it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    That makes sense to me. Thank you for the explanation. For whatever reason, it was not clicking together for me, but your explanation does clear it up for me. The prose is clear about it so I do not think any adjustements or revisions need to be made. Aoba47 (talk) 17:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Would a sadism link be beneficial in the lead (or even a link to the sadism and masochism in fiction article)? It is pretty well known by readers, but a link may be helpful for those who are not 100% aware of its meaning.
    Good idea; the latter article is a particularly good target. Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Thank you for the response. The second article is definitely a useful one imo. Aoba47 (talk) 17:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • If horror stories is linked in the lead, shouldn't mystery stories and detective stories also get links for consistency? Horror should also be linked in the article to match the lead. If mystery and detective get links in the lead, they should be linked in the article as well.
    Yes; done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • This is more of a clarification question than anything. Was it common for a pulp magazine to have a novel in an issue? It just seems rather odd to me as I wouldn't expect a novel in a magazine, but I'm not familiar with these kinds of publications.
    It wasn't the general rule, but some magazines did it on a regular basis, or even were built around that idea. Fantastic Novels was one example. Often these were shorter than would be acceptable as a novel nowadays, but a long lead story could still be called a novel even if it was too short to actually be published as one. But there were several magazines which, like Dime Mystery for its first few issues, published a full-length novel in a single issue. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Thank you for the explanation! Aoba47 (talk) 17:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Edgar Wallace should be linked in the article.
    Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Did this magazine ever attract analysis from feminist scholars? I'd imagine they would have a field day with how women are represented in these stories. I do not see a lot of academic analysis in general in this article so it could just be the case that this magazine and its stories were overlooked in that department.
    I would love to find material like this but haven't found any. There must be hundreds of feminist analyses of horror fiction in general but I don't know of anything that specifically talks about this magazine. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Thank you for the response. That is what I thought. Maybe one day, someone will discover this and write a paper or something about it. It just reminds me of my days in graduate school when people would go back to lesser-known material to study. Aoba47 (talk) 17:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I have a clarification question after reading about "Burn—Lovely Lady!". I believe I know the answer, but I want to make sure. Was there any form of censorship in place during the magazine's publication? I'm more familiar with the comics side of horror at this time (i.e. EC Comics) which became firmly regulated by the Comics Code Authority in the 1950s, but before that, things were much looser in terms of censorship. Was a similar thing true for pulp fiction?
    Many of the publishers were in New York City, and I know that in the late 1930s the Mayor, Fiorello La Guardia, decided to crack down on magazines that he felt were pornographic. Nothing I have that mentions this says anything about Dime Mystery, though; and I think La Guardia's focus was on the nudes on the covers more than the contents. There were magazines that were much more offensive to the eye than Dime Mystery -- Spicy Adventure for example. Probably more explicit content too, though what was considered explicit back then would be pretty tame now. It's possible that the move away from weird menace was because of La Guardia's efforts, but it's also possible that the genre was played out and Steeger decided to try something different. Without a source I don't think I can add anything about this, unfortunately. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Thank you for the explanation. That makes sense to me. Even with comics, there did seem to be a lot of focus on the covers so I am not surprised a similar energy was had for these magazines. Aoba47 (talk) 17:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Apologies for being super nitpick-y, but for the note, should the pen name be in quotations as name are not traditional presented in that manner?
    I've removed the quotes -- I think I've seen it done that way but on reflection I think you're right that it's not the usual way. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Wonderful work as well. I greatly appreciate your work on these magazine articles. They are an invaluable resource for anyone who wants to know about them or is already into them. My comments are fairly minor. I did have some clarification questions and apologies again if the answers to those are obvious. They are just questions I thought about while reading through the article. Once everything is addressed, I will be more than happy to support. Best of luck with the FAC! Aoba47 (talk) 02:23, 11 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for the review and the compliment! Replies above; in a couple of cases I haven't made any changes yet but can do so if you think it's necessary. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Thank you for the responses. I greatly appreciate the time and energy you have put into your explanations. Everything looks solid to me and I support the FAC for promotion based on the prose. Best of luck with it! Aoba47 (talk) 17:08, 11 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Hi Mike, I hope you're well. I'll review this, seems really interesting so far.

  • "The rate increased in the 1940s, going up by at least a half cent per word, and more in some cases and for some writers." Remove "and for some writers"? I guess that "in some cases" is meant to refer to circumstances other than which writer it is, but the wording is a bit confusing as it is now. Moisejp (talk) 02:59, 12 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    On rereading the source it really was just based on the writer, not on anything else, so I cut "in some cases" instead. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:44, 12 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Rather than giving up on the magazine, which would have meant losing its second-class mailing permit": Could the meaning and/or relevance of "second-class mailing permit" be added? I don't know what this means, or why not wanting to lose this would have been an important factor in Steeger's decision to not fold the magazine. Moisejp (talk) 03:09, 12 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    The permit allowed you to mail the magazine second-class to subscribers, so you wouldn't want to start a magazine without a second-class permit, and they took time to apply for. So if Steeger cancelled the magazine he would have had to wait to start another one until the permit was granted; by keeping the magazine and changing its title and editorial policy he didn't have to wait. I've put an explanation in a note, rather than in the running text, to avoid breaking up the flow. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:44, 12 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • By the way, I noticed repetition related to this between the "Publishing history" and "Contents and reception" sections: "The new magazine struggled,[1] but rather than cancel it, Steeger decided to change it to focus more on horror" / "Rather than giving up on the magazine, which would have meant losing its second-class mailing permit, Steeger decided to change its focus to horror." Would it likely be better to avoid this repetition? Moisejp (talk) 03:57, 12 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The next sentence too: "The lead novel was eliminated, and replaced with a story of no more than half novel length, allowing more fiction to be included" / "There were no more complete novels; the word "Book" had already been dropped from the cover two issues earlier.[3][9] Rogers Terrill, the editor, now wanted lead stories no longer than about thirty-five thousand words, instead of about fifty-five thousand words." Moisejp (talk) 04:01, 12 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    I've removed the second one of these but I'd like to keep the first -- I agree it really belongs in the "Contents and reception" section, but a brief mention seems necessary to explain why the title changed and what Steeger's response to the poor sales was. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:44, 12 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • All right, along the same lines, I also got confused just now, on my subsequent read-through, that at the first mention of weird menace in the main narrative, it is only defined as "horror" but if the reader goes quite a bit farther down, we learn that a requirement is "appears supernatural, but ultimately has an everyday explanation" (which matches how it's described in the lead). But it may be okay. Your choice to have a "Publication history" that overlaps a bit with other sections is not a convention I'm used to, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's not valid; and if we do assume it's valid, then a bit of overlapping may be okay, even if it's not what I'm used to. Moisejp (talk) 21:56, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    I've used this approach in other magazine articles, and usually it works well because there's rarely much overlap between the business aspects of a magazine's history and the sort of fiction it printed. Here I can see it's confusing not to be clearer at the start. I've added a more detailed explanation of what kind of horror story Steeger was looking for in the "Publishing history" section, at the risk of repetition. How does that look? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:15, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Lead: "the publisher, Harry Steeger, was inspired to create the genre by the Grand Guignol theater in Paris." This feels a bit incomplete to me, and I started typing up an edit along the lines of "inspired to create this genre by performances he saw at the Grand Guignol theater in Paris." But then I realized I couldn't be sure he'd seen these performances, and he may have just read about them. In the main narrative there is "which provided gory dramatizations", which I think helps make the idea feel more complete there. Moisejp (talk) 03:48, 12 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    He had seen it, and you're right that should be clearer. Added a bit; how does that look? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:44, 12 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I got a little confused about this: Terrill outlined definitions of terror, horror, and mystery; later it says "the plot of Dance of the Skeletons" satisfied Terrill's requirements for terror, mystery"; and Page tells how he included the elements of terror and horror. I think it's implied that all three elements were requirements but the later details only mention satisfying the requirements of terror and mystery, and then terror and horror. Moisejp (talk) 22:10, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    I read those comments as less of a statement that Terrill would check all three boxes off in a formal way when assessing a story, and more as general thoughts about the kind of thing he was looking for, so I don't see it as a real conflict. Perhaps that's because I'm familiar with the industry? Pulp magazine publishing was a fast-moving business that did not look for high-quality prose ; it was about sniffing out stories that would raise circulation. The points you mention are all from quotes, so I'm having a hard time seeing how to fix this since I can't mess with the quotes. Do you have any thoughts about how to make this clearer? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:19, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Minor suggestion, but would the Issue data for Dime Mystery Magazine table work even better in the "Bibliographic details" section?
    Done; it overlaps the notes section that way, so I collapsed it by default. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:08, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That's all from me. Moisejp (talk) 22:28, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support on prose and apparent comprehensiveness (I don't know much about the topic, but it seems comprehensive to me). I'm satisfied with the edits and explanations related to my concerns. Moisejp (talk) 04:23, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Claiming this for review :) Will begin reading once I'm done with another FAC review ‍ ‍ Your Power 🐍 ‍ 💬 "What did I tell you?"
📝 "Don't get complacent..."
10:09, 12 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • "pulp magazine that was published from 1932 to 1950" I feel like the sentence would mean the same thing and still sound okay if "that was" got dropped
    Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:49, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Similar sentiments in "appeared to be supernatural, but which would ultimately be revealed to have an everyday explanation" - could simplify to "appeared to be supernatural but would be revealed..." ultimately there seems unnecessary in my view
    I dropped "which". I was trying to use "ultimately" to indicate that the revelation would be at the end of the story. If you think that's clear enough without "ultimately", then yes it can be cut. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:49, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    I certainly think it can be removed. The key part of the sentence is the revelation; I don't think it's a net positive for the lead to specify that such revelation happens at the climax or near the end. Most if not every plot twist is like that anyway - "appears supernatural but revealed to be ordinary" already implies something happens at the end. ‍ ‍ Your Power 🐍 ‍ 💬 "What did I tell you?"
    📝 "Don't get complacent..."
    09:40, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:30, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "The new magazine struggled" with what exactly? Readership? Sales? Critical reception?
    Changed to "The new magazine's sales were disappointing". Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:49, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Can we change "were disappointing" to something like "underperformed"? This kind of wording (especially considering we do not know who is supposed to be disappointed) engenders a sense of negativity in readers that makes the sentence seem less than neutral. Also the current wording makes it seem like Steeger changed the sales' genre.
    I made it "weak" -- "underperformed" isn't wrong, but I want to avoid the reader thinking there was a target sales number, which is not how the sources talk about it. Of course the target was profitability in general. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:30, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Same thought on the "this was a good rate for the pulps..." the vague fluff can be cut. Simply saying the rates "gave Popular the same amount of prestige as Street & Smith and other publishers" is sharper. At least, if that is what "class" is supposed to mean - idk what you're trying to say here. Also, what is "this" in "this was a good rate" referring to? Steeger's rates? Gardner's? Did Garner contribute to Dime? A little unclear.
    The source does make the comparison but on reflection I think it's not necessary, so I've compressed this. I've now made it "these rates" to make it clear it isn't referring to just the three-quarter cent rate or the higher rate alone. The important point is that paying well and early made the magazine a much more attractive market for writers. That's what I meant by "class"; writers would pick the "best" pulps to submit to first, and if their submissions were rejected would work their way down the list to the low- and slow-paying publishers. I'm glad you asked about Gardner; the source does mention him in this connection, but looking at it again it seems to be a general statement, not about this magazine in particular. I went through an index of Gardner's work and found nothing of his in Dime Mystery, so I've cut the mention of him here and in the lead. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:30, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Use {{'s}} with possessive forms of italicized nouns so that the apostrophe does not collide with the text (MOS:APOSTROPHE)
    Done, I think. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:49, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Differentiating "popular" lowercase from "Popular" uppercase is obviously easy for folks who can see just fine, but for those who use screen readers, it might get confusing at best. Consider "with detective stories becoming more popular (lowercase), so two of the first four magazines launched by Popular (uppercase)" or "another Popular (uppercase) title".
    I hadn't thought of that, but you're right it's an issue. I got around it by changing one instance of "popular" to "well-known" (not a synonym, but equally true in that sentence) and changing the one you quote above to "increasing in popularity". Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:49, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Nitpick - The "Popular soon launched..." sentence, while not incorrect grammatically, contains 3 independent clauses all joined by semicolons. Reads somewhat unwieldy to me. You can split the sentence, but it's completely optional
    Yes, split. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:49, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "This was a good rate for the pulps..." also WAAAY too long imo. I have the same thoughts on many other sentences here with semicolons, which seems to be used a lot here. For the example, the sentence about the J.G. Reeder series has way too many short pauses in a short amount of time and it dampens the flow of it all. There are multiple sentences here that could benefit from being halved, and it is up to you to choose which ones.
    I've changed a few -- you're right that semicolons are a vice of mine. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:49, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "the selling point was 'A New $2.00 Detective Novel', as the cover declared, complete in each issue" with this structure it is ambiguous which is being declared by the cover. The tagline, or the "complete in each issue" bit?
    The bit in quotes is what's on the cover -- I was hoping the quotes were enough to make this clear, especially with the cover image next to the paragraph. What would make this plainer to the reader? Perhaps "the selling point, as the cover declared, was 'A New $2.00 Detective Novel', complete in each issue" but that seems clunkier to me. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:49, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    I would take your suggestion and then split the "complete in each issue" bit into its own sentence. "the selling point, as the cover declared... Novels in each issue were full-length."
    Done slightly differently -- how does that look? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:30, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Myster Magazine" is this a typo
    Yes, fixed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:49, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Terrill's surname appears in four consecutive sentences - perhaps we can replace one of them with a pronoun
    One cut. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:49, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Either lose the second "more" in "more bizarre and more deadly" or change "more deadly" to "deadlier"
    Fixed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:49, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Although most of the fiction was low-quality pulp writing" something tells me this reads as an opinion written in Gpedia's voice and therefore needs attribution or clarification
    This is in the lead; in the body it's indirectly attributed to Michael Cook. Do you think the attribution needs to be in the lead too? I don't think it's controversial to saw that much of fiction in pulp magazines was "low-quality pulp writing". Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:49, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    I'd be more confident in the prose if we made that attribution more direct - sentence would flow maaaarginally better as well. And no, you don't need to do the same for the corresponding part in the lead. I agree with you thatthe wording is not that contentious. ‍ ‍ Your Power 🐍 ‍ 💬 "What did I tell you?"
    📝 "Don't get complacent..."
    09:40, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Reworded to quote Cook directly so the attribution is clearer. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:30, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "In 1937, the weird menace magazines as a whole" do we need "the" and "as a whole" there?
    Good point; cut. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:49, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "an example of the 'sex-sadistic phase' of the genre" trim to "genre's 'sex-sadistic phase'"
    Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:49, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "were all painted" lose the "all"
    Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:49, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That is all from me! I have to give you 10s for the prose, as it is extremely well-written and engaging! Man I could not help but think about Scooby-Doo when reading the entire thing - surprised that the article for weird menace does not mention the show at all. Anywho. All the prose needs is some tightening in lots of places, a couple more long pauses, and some clarifications. After that, I'd say the article would be as well-written as it can be Face-smile.svg

Thanks! And thanks for the review. I've made most of the changes you suggested; there are a couple of follow-up comments above. Yes, Scooby-Doo is an obvious parallel, but so far I haven't seen a source make that point! Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:49, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Second round of changes made. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:30, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Mike Christie excellent. I did another readthrough of the article, and here are the third batch of comments I got:
  • "the publisher, Harry Steeger, was inspired to create the genre by the gory scenes he had seen at the Grand Guignol theater". Two things. First, I don't think one person singlehandedly "creates a genre" like that - I see better ways to phrase it. Second, "gory scenes" can imply that the plays he saw there involved a lot of gore, or some real-life violence happened to occur within the theatre and it was so gory that Steeger developed a morbid sort of inspiration from it. Admittedly I find the latter more fun and intriguing, but alas, that is not the case here. I would suggest the wording be clearer.
    Fair enough. I made it "was inspired to create the new policy by the gory dramatizations he had seen at the Grand Guignol theater in Paris". Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:24, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "The author [Terrill] mentioned his predicament..." personally not a fan of WP:ELEVAR, as I argue that writing style is more for the realm of magazines and newspapers than encyclopedias such as this one.
    Not sure what you mean here -- are you saying "predicament" is elegant variation? And I see I need to clarify this anyway -- the author was not Terrill. Now reads: "Terrill had a novel he wanted to use, but it had been written for the old policy, and Terrill asked the author to cut it down from sixty thousand words in only a few days to be used in the first issue under the new policy. The author complained to Norvell Page, a fast and prolific pulp writer. about Terrill's request, and Page produced a new thirty-five thousand word novel, Dance of the Skeletons, by the deadline." Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:24, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • It might just be me, but "not that far behind" sounds too conversational and unencyclopedic.
    Now reads "soon followed suit". Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:24, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "produced a new thirty-five thousand word novel" the adjective here should technically be hyphenated as such - "thirty-five-thousand-word novel" - but that is clunky. "produced a new novel with thirty-five thousand words" ?
    I'm not a huge fan of doing it either way, but I agree it's wrong as it stands. Changed to use the additional hyphen, which I think is a little smoother despite the hyphenation. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:24, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • A wikilink to folks who do not know what purple prose means would be terrific.
    Done. I recall MoS saying at one time that we weren't supposed to link inside quotes but apparently that's no longer the guidance. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:24, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "was completely regular" I see no reason to include "completely" there
    Yes, removed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:24, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The titles for the "Galactic Central" references need to have the magazine title in italics
    I'm not sure this is correct -- the web page doesn't italicize the title, and I think the intent here is to match the target. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:24, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Those are the final comments I have in store. Wonderful, comprehensive work - I learned a buncha stuff while reading through the article! I hope my comments above have been constructive and helpful. Please feel free to object to anything you think falls short of being constructive Face-smile.svg ‍ ‍ Your Power 🐍 ‍ 💬 "What did I tell you?"
📝 "Don't get complacent..."
13:49, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks for the detailed review; I really appreciate it. More replies above; let me know if you think more changes are needed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:24, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
And one more reply above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:45, 16 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Well, my review here has wrapped up. I am now confident to support based on prose quality. Note that I am not super acquainted with the topic area so I cannot say anything with certainty wrt. comprehensiveness, but I personally felt like I learnt everything I needed to know walking away from the article. ‍ ‍ Your Power 🐍 ‍ 💬 "What did I tell you?"
📝 "Don't get complacent..."
05:51, 16 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

By the way, if you have the time and effort to do a prose review, I have an open FAC about a recent song here. Cheers, and have a good start to your week! ‍ ‍ Your Power 🐍 ‍ 💬 "What did I tell you?"
📝 "Don't get complacent..."
04:31, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review

Source review -- pass

Hi Mike:

  • Formatting looks fine and all links work but I don't think we need Ashley linked four times in the Sources section?
  • Reliability-wise, I know you sought in vain at WP:RS for comments on Galactic Central back in 2016, and it was passed as reliable in the subsequent Weird Tales FAC, so I don't think we need revisit here. Xenophile though is a new one on me -- I see what appears to be a bookshop, a publisher, and a magazine on Google, I assume we're talking the magazine? Was it professional?

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:59, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've removed the duplicate links to Ashley. Xenophile is a fanzine, so wouldn't normally be considered reliable, but the reliable sources here are citing it explicitly as their source, so I think that's evidence that it's trusted by the professionals. This Google Books search shows it cited numerous times by reliable sources, including Ashley, Bleiler, and Weinberg. The content is an interview with Harry Steeger, so it's not about amateur opinion; the question is whether the fanzine is a reliable source for reporting Steeger's words. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:11, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Mmm, in my milhist sphere I know reliable works that cite David Irving and Paul Carell, but try referencing them directly in a WP article...! Obviously not something as controversial here and I can see that the few citations relying on the interview are pretty basic so yes, borderline, but okay. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:43, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes, I tried to use the secondary sources that were clearly drawing their information from Hardin where possible. The main things here that are only cited to Hardin are the per word rate and sales figures during and after the war. I cite the interview for the Grand Guignol as well, but I could drop that if necessary because Jones does cover it in a source that predates Hardin, so it's there as backup. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:00, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments by Ian

Couldn't resist reading the whole article and lightly copyediting as I went, so just let me know if any probs there. Looks comprehensive and logically structured. BTW, does this genre mean you're done with SF mags now...?! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:20, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Your copyedits look fine as always. No, there are still a few left! Though many will be too short for me to bring to FAC, and quite a few more have only a marginal relationship with sf. But there are a few major magazines left to do -- Interzone and Asimov's, for example. Mike Ashley's last book is now out; it goes up to 2020 so it will let me do some of these. But some of the marginal ones are interesting too; I'll probably bring The Black Cat here next, which has some interesting details. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:30, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Look forward to that, and happy to support here taking Sturm's image review as read. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:00, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Theodora Kroeber

Nominator(s): SusunW, Vanamonde

This article is about Theodora Kroeber, writer, psychologist, and anthropologist. Referred to sometimes as the wife of well-known anthropologist Alfred Kroeber, Theodora built her own reputation as an author after starting to write in her fifties. This nomination is the result of a collaboration with SusunW, and received feedback pre-FAC from @Ipigott and Tim riley:, as well as a GA review from Chiswick Chap some time ago. All feedback is welcome. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:57, 7 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support from Tim riley

I informally reviewed the article a few days ago, and such quibbles − all minor − as I had then were attended to. On re-reading the article I find nothing further to cavil about, except the order of the citations [5] [1] [4] at the end of the second sentence of the Early life section, which looks a bit odd. I am happy to support the elevation of the article to FA. It is well written, widely sourced from what are evidently scholarly sources, as well illustrated as I assume is possible, seems balanced and proportionate, and meets all the FA criteria in my view. − Tim riley talk 18:20, 7 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Much appreciated; your review was very helpful. I've fixed the cite order issues, caused by my late addition of a footnote. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:59, 7 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • WIkilink Indigenous peoples of California in the first sentence
  • "Married once in 1920" - don't think the word "once" is needed there. It suggests that she was only ever married once, which wasn't the case
  • "and received high praise from commentators for its writing" - I think the last three words are redundant as a book isn't really likely to be praised for anything else
  • "Kracaw graduated in 1915, as the valedictorian of her class at Telluride High School and" => "Kracaw graduated in 1915, as the valedictorian of her class at Telluride High School, and"
  • "Kracaw enrolled at the University of California, Berkeley (UC Berkeley), in 1915" - don't think that comma is needed
  • "the cornerstone of the Kroeber's lengthy marriage" => "the cornerstone of the Kroebers' lengthy marriage"
  • That's what I got :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:23, 9 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    @ChrisTheDude: Thanks for the review. I've addressed all your comments. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:32, 9 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 22:18, 9 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Image review - pass

  • Consider adding alt text. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:13, 9 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Added "refer to caption", though I've never been a 100% certain when that's enough and when it's not...Vanamonde (Talk) 23:36, 9 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Added alt text description. (Vanamonde, alt text is not the same as the caption. It is text read by a screen reader for someone who cannot see it to describe what is in the image before the caption which tells the person why that image is relevant.) SusunW (talk) 04:53, 10 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks SusunW, that makes sense, I seem to remember someone told me not to describe the image; but it's quite likely I misunderstood when that's not needed...Vanamonde (Talk) 15:40, 10 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Both images are appropriately licenced, positioned, captioned and alt texted. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:05, 10 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Drive by comments

  • Any reason why the ISSN for "Memorial to Theodora Kroeber Quinn (1897-1979)" is not given?
    Wasn't generated using the same tool, I suppose...added.
  • Similarly "'Towards an Archaeology of the Present': Theodora Kroeber and Ursula K. Le Guin".
  • No publisher location for Reid, 1997?
    I do not find location a very useful indicator of anything for a book or journal with a linked publisher, particularly in the modern day when it's likely to have been simultaneously printed in many places. I've removed locations for all except newspapers, I hope that's a reasonable approach...
The MoS states "Citations for books typically include: ... place of publication". It is broadly accepted that this may be omitted, so long as it is done consistently; so fine.
Possibly. I would like to, but let me see if RL time permits. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:12, 10 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild

Recusing to review.

  • "was writer Ursula K. Le Guin." Perhaps a definite article, to avoid false title?
    Agreed. - V
  • "She published The Inland Whale, a collection of translated Native Californian narratives in 1959, and in 1961 published Ishi in Two Worlds, an account of Ishi, the last member of the Yahi people of Northern California, whom Alfred Kroeber had befriended and studied between 1911 and 1916." A long and complex sentence. (Which contains "published" twice.)
    Holy crap batman... - V
  • "and received high praise from commentators from contemporary reviewers." ?
    Fixed - V
  • "She served as a Regent". Why the upper-case R?
    No reason, removed. - V
  • "She has been described as having influenced her husband's anthropological work, and for having inspired interest in ..." Grammar: You have "She has been described as ... and for having inspired interest in". Either both "as" or both "for" please.
    Fixed. - V
  • "According to her family, Charles's family were". Could "family" twice in three words be avoided? And why do we need "According to her family"? They don't sound like a HQ RS.
    An interesting point. The source we're citing is Buzaljko, the biographer, who is reliable; but she reports it as "According to family lore..." which I presume means she was unable to verify it herself. Hence the wording here. It seems to me that if the biographer thought it worth including, we ought to include it too, but perhaps rewording is in order? - V
    Just because a biographer felt it worth including is not a necessary reason for us to. Or we would include everything in the biography. Including someting which you assume the source was unable to verify seems dubious to me. Even hedged with caveats in the text it may not be worth the effort. But if you wish to give it a go, it's your call.
    I've omitted the qualifier and what seems to me the obvious bits of lore: the mother's heritage isn't qualified, and the father's Polish heritage would seem to me non-controversial...and I like to include that, when available. If you would strongly prefer omitting altogether, I will do so. - V
Nah. It's your article. And it seems entirely defensible now.
  • Is "worked in the nurses' corps" US English for 'worked as a nurse', or something else?
    No, it's "worked as a nurse" as best as I can tell, except these days a nurse is someone you'd expect to have a degree in being a nurse, whereas TK was then fresh out of high-school, so I followed the wording of the source. If it's just confusing, I'll simplify. - V
  • Nursing corps was common lingo at the time (end of WWI) even in the UK for those hundreds (thousands?) of women who weren't actually nurses by profession but volunteered to help with hospitals as part of their "war work". - S
So if we were writing in 1922 it would be an aceptable usage. But as it seems to be 2022 ...
Afterthought: Ms F Nightingale, who lived not far from where I do, never gained a formal qualification in nursing and had a total of four months semi-formal training. Yet I suspect few of our readers would quibble with her being described as a "nurse". Autres temps, autres moeurs.
Changed it to worked as a volunteer nurse. - S
  • "since the lower elevation there". Perhaps "elevation" → 'altitude'. (Unless you actually mean that their new accomodation was on the first floor.)
    To my semi-technical understanding, the definition of altitude is distance from the earth's surface, and so the term shouldn't be applied to dwellings at all... - V
    Wiktionary has "Altitude: The absolute height of a location, usually measured from sea level", with an example of "As the altitude increases, the temperature gets lower, so remember to bring warm clothes to the mountains." So I would suggest going with that.
    So adjusted. - V
  • "and facing both blindness and tuberculosis". I can kind of see how one could be facing blindness, but tuberculosis? How does that happen?
    Buzaljko says "threatened with tuberculosis and blindness", which I interpret to mean he was infected with tuberculosis, and that (or other illnesses) were probably going to blind him. But that's just my view, other explanations could be derived...I'm open to suggestions on wording, and I wonder if SusunW saw anything informative in the news stories? Vanamonde (Talk) 02:31, 11 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I find nothing at all about tuberculosis or failing business in newspapers. Newspapers say he had Bright's disease and complications from that caused him to lose his sight, forcing him to close his successful business. You do notes differently from me, V, so check that I did it consistently.- S
  • Link majoring, for the benefit of non-North Americans.
    Done - V
  • "She considered majoring in economics and English literature". Do you mean 'She considered majoring in economics or English literature'?
    I saw it as "she was considering economics and English literature" but "or" is unambiguous, so switched. - V
  • "that had been clients of a juvenile court." What is involved in being a client of a court? Is this US English?
    Unsure, to be honest, it's from the source. Some googling does not illuminate it further: how is "ten families from which children had been in juvenile court", as the children is clearly implied by the court system? - V
  • I agree the wording in Buzajlko is awkward. If a juvenile offender is convicted, they become a ward of the state, but she is talking about "families", so we don't know at what phase these children were, i.e. accused, convicted, in parental care, wards, etc. Perhaps to modify your suggestion a bit V, "ten families whose children had been in juvenile court." - S
  • "in the 1923 Berkeley, California fire"." I thought this was generally known as 'the 1923 Berkeley fire'.
    Oddly, article title and bolded title are different. Google scholar hits favor omitting "California", which I've done via piping. - V
  • "Clifton left to return to Berkeley, but died en route in Denver". Is the cause of death known?
    He was ill with pneumonia; but the sources stop short of saying that's what he died of. Perhaps Susun knows more, she dug out the details of his death. - V
  • No idea what he died from. Newspapers didn't say. - S
  • "and she decided to study anthropology". Just a suggestion - delete "she".
    I tried it, but that read to me like she had decided in Santa Fe, which wasn't the intended meaning... - V
  • "Anthropological career and second marriage". Would it be possible to provide a date for this section earlier than the second paragraph?
    Added, first sentence. - V
  • "Theodora went to consult Alfred Louis Kroeber". Perhaps 'consulted Alfred Louis Kroeber'. And is the middle name necessary?
    Agreed, unnecessary. Done. - V
  • "to help bolster class sizes to legitimize course offerings". Should "to" be 'and'? If not, I can't work out what you are driving at here. How would low class sizes reflect on the material offered, much less illegitimise them@
    I'll leave this also for SusunW, who handled the Kerns source. Vanamonde (Talk) 02:31, 11 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • According to the source the classes were very small, for example in one course there were 9 students, 4 of whom were women;(pp 77-78) in another there were 3 students, 2 were women. "…graduate programs in anthropology had to attract a certain number of qualified students for the programs to continue and the new profession to grow… The presence of women as students clearly helped to expand the number of graduate courses offered… their presence actually benefited [Julian Steward], resulting as it did in a broader range of graduate courses". (p 120) In other words, if students didn't enroll, the course(s) would be eliminated; if sufficient students participated, they could add additional courses. - S
Consider boiling this down into a brief footnote. I don't insist on this, but I think it would be helpful.
Okay. - S
  • "who told Theodora his tribe's legend". Singular; the tribe only had one legend?
    Adjusted, certainly more than one. - V
  • "The redwood house has been described as the cornerstone of the Kroebers' lengthy marriage." Suggest moving this to earlier in the paragraph, when the house is first discussed.
    Done. - V
  • "she wrote a novel about Telluride." Um, the last individual mentioned is Ursula, who famously wrote novels.
    Indeed, this whole thing began as a side-project of my work on Ursula, with which you're familiar...this was the mother, clarified. - V
  • "This piece was never published". It may just be me, but I do not usually think of something as substantial as a novel as a "piece".
    Hadn't considered that; how is "work"? - V
  • "Nine pieces were collected, that shared a theme of heroines." I know that US English does crazy thinks with commas, but are you sure about this one?
    It isn't needed, removed. - V
  • "at which point it was still in print." It seems to still be in print.
    It does, but a secondary source is hard to come by...I found a 2015 review saying "still in print", if we want to better I think we're going to have to use one of the publishers. UC press has a 50th anniversary edition up. - V
  • "reviewers said that". As you then go on to quote, I assume that this is a reviewer, singular.
    Fixed. - V
  • "Retrospective assessments of the book are more mixed. Writing in 2010, historian Douglas Cazaux Sackman ..." (Is the middle name necessary?) In what way was Sackman's assessment "mixed"?
    Removed middle name; Sackman's review isn't mixed, but the recent reviews as a body seemed a pretty obvious summary to me, given that some reviews were negative, but if you feel that's wandering into OR I'm open to suggestions. - V
I assumed that it was something like that I am not concerned on an OR front, just that reading it one is a little puzzled. Not a big deal if you wish to leave as is. Ot move Sackman's comments to the end of the section?
Moving is a good suggestion, done. That way we're leading with an obviously mixed assessment. - V
  • "which she had written previously with Alfred.[25][45][46]: 82". The "82" seems to be a sole superscript page location; perhaps move it down into Notes.
  • done - S
  • "described them both as "superb stylists"". Hang on, both books were "stylists"?
    Both Kroebers, now added - V

And that's all from me. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:46, 11 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Gog the Mild: Thanks as always. I've worked my way through, a couple replies for you to consider. Vanamonde (Talk) 00:47, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Source review

Footnote numbers refer to this version.

  • Not really a source review point, but is it intentional that you have a subheading for "Notes", but no subheading for the numbered citations?
  • You're inconsistent about using a publisher parameter in your journal citations; it's missing from about half-a-dozen of them.
  • For cite news, you skip giving locations in some obvious cases such as the NY Times, but then you give it in other obvious cases such as the Sacramento Bee.

Sources are reliable, and the links all work. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:17, 16 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks Mike. I've removed the publisher for journals; it often isn't meaningful information, anyhow; and added locations for the newspapers. I'm not sure about keeping it only for non-obvious ones, that seems a little subjective. Vanamonde (Talk) 02:42, 16 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Pass. Yes, I guess it is a bit subjective, but it's an option people take. I think there's a short list somewhere in the MoS of the cities one doesn't have to add further identification for when used as publisher locations -- e.g. London, New York, Paris, but Reading, UK, and Easton, Pennsylvania. That same list would probably work as the "obvious" list. But putting them all in is fine. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:00, 16 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support from czar


Nice to see these Le Guin-related articles continue! I copy edited some sections directly but wanted to bring a few thoughts here for consideration:

  • Is there a reason why so many sentences are using a compound ", and" format when both clauses are connected ideas that don't need separation? I.e., what is the function of the comma in "Charles's family were recent Polish migrants, and Phebe had grown up in Wyoming"?
  • removed comma in that sentence. - S
  • It's unclear whether she moved with her family to Orland and if she did, whether she worked as a volunteer nurse there; relatedly, there is a fair amount of depth on what the father did in Orland that seems tangential to the biography at hand. It could be summarized as that his business and health failed, culminating with his suicide without the details of the local chamber of commerce and Bright's disease, etc., unless that is somehow important?
  • Nurse in Colorado, fixed. Moved it to the note to explain about the discrepancies in sources and summarized. - S
  • "Nine pieces were collected" Unclear if the book is just these nine or whether this is some special subset of the book's stories. Also can recast to remove passive voice.
    Addressed passive voice, edited slightly. There were only nine stories, but some commentary from Kroeber also. - V
  • "Described as a classic" By whom? If this was phrased "A 'classic'" then we'd know it is whoever wrote the citation. Same with "A review volume stated" vs. "One reviewer stated".
    Adjusted wording on the classic. Not sure the other needs changing; it's more descriptive and less an assessment. - V
  • "Ishi had died of tuberculosis in 1916, and Theodora undertook to write an account of his life" This implies a connection but there was a great gap in-between 1916 and 1960.
    There's no "and" right now; there's separate sentences. Not sure who made the change, but it looks better to me. - V
  • It was challenging to write Ishi and it recounted the destruction of the Yahi people but those are presented as two separate ideas. Was it the destruction of the Yahi people that made the book difficult to write?
    It was both; the destruction of the people, and Ishi's loneliness. Adjusted wording. - V
  • "A review of the 1964 version noted that it was illustrated by Ruth Robbins" Shouldn't this fact be separated from the section on reviewer opinions?
    Agreed. Moved up to where the version is first discussed. - V
  • "Brown was suffering from pneumonia" When they married? Or intermittently through their three years together?
Sources do not give more details - S
It currently implies that his early death was due to pneumonia (or else why mention it)—is that the case? If not, it would be trivia and can be removed. czar
It feels to me like context for their relationship, rather than a cause of death; but if that's unpersuasive to you, I can remove it. - V
  • Are there any details about their courtship, given their difference in age/power?
    Sadly none that I've seen outside Kroeber's own biography of Alfred, and even there details are sparse; she writes of him, and of herself, very little of what they did together. - V
    I found a little tidbit, that the wedding was private and came as a surprise to the Berkeley staff.[5]
    Sourced to Steward, Julian H. (1961). "Alfred Louis Kroeber". International Journal of Comparative Sociology. 2 (1): 88–116. doi:10.1163/156854261X00101. ISSN 1745-2554. (p. 96, available in WP:TWL). There is a very similar article by Steward the same year in the American Anthropologist that reworks that sentence (JSTOR 667051, p. 1047) but it still seems fair to cite the former, and I think that gives the courtship sufficient context. czar 16:50, 21 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    A good find, thank you, though oddly littered with typos. I've added a sentence. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:12, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The transition between the Anthropological career and Writing career sections is somewhat awkward. It introduces The Inland Whale and then reintroduces it in the next paragraph. Thinking about how best to resolve, is there a reason for the separate Writing career heading? The Ishi section is itself part of her Anthropological career, no? The heading could just be removed and any overlap between those two mentioned paragraphs removed. "Other writing" could then become a level 2 heading.
    I agree about the redundancy, but not about the setting. The distinction is mentioned in the sources, particularly the fact that Kroeber starting writing late; and while some of her writing was anthropological, it was not academic, which the earlier work had been, not to mention the hiatus of many years between academic writing and 1959. I've addressed the redundancy; if you still think the break is an issue, we can discuss it further. - V
    The rework looks good! I will say as a reader that the rationale for the section break isn't readily apparent to me. Together they read as an "Anthropology and writing career" combined, as they continue to be intertwined. Whether the writing is for scholastic or general audiences isn't something that stands out to me as a reader. (This is more FYI as I've already made my recommendation and won't press it further.) czar
    I don't know, the transition seems clear to me but I've been staring at this article for a long time...if someone else makes the point, I'll make the change. - V
  • The Ishi section goes into a full accounting of its reception that seems much more appropriate for the book's article. This could be pared to a basic summary style, with the reader to link to the book's article to read more. WP:CRS has some suggestions for combining refs.
    I've trimmed this a little bit, but I'm afraid I disagree on the substance here. This is far and away Kroeber's best known work; without it her notability itself is borderline. In sources that give her passing mention, her authorship of this book is what's mentioned. Additionally; numerically, praiseworthy sources are in greater abundance; if I were to shorten it, the more nuanced recent critique would necessarily need to be trimmed substantially, and a lot of meaning would be lost. In an article that doesn't have length issues, I would prefer not to trim more. Happy to discuss specifics further, however. - V
    The detail does still read as a lengthy tangent. It's undeniable that it's a key part of her life, so I would ask what exactly the retrospective assessments and commentary about the book's detail is relevant to a biography of the author. When I've written about authors, it's been sufficient to write about the context that led to the book and some overview of the reception/impact of the book, without necessarily getting into book reviews unless there is something specifically noteworthy. It's slightly different when there is no article on the independent work itself, but in this case, there is a whole separate article for more depth. Otherwise the summary from the lede of that article would seem sufficient for this biography's needs. czar
    I feel Ishi in Two Worlds also needs a bit of an update. I wrote that article, almost four years ago. When I did so, the contemporary review I had access to was Clifford, which was a mixed commentary. The Pascal source, though from 1997, I only found when rewriting this article; and the Simmons source is more recent. I would characterize both their reviews as drawing from post-colonial theory, and they contain an important thread of critique that I haven't fully incorporated at the book article. I don't think the older material is being invalidated; but were I a reviewer I would consider the author's legacy incomplete without this material. I've dropped two more sentences, but I really don't know that we should shorten further. - V
  • The book received high praised upon publication: one reviewer said that Kroeber had a talent for "making us part of a life we never took part in". How are these clauses connected? If not, they should be separated.
    That's an example of the high praise, though...and a consistent theme; even the critical reviews note that Kroeber's writing was evocative. - V
  • "others found it wanting as a scholarly biography" This is a great example of condensing refs but it appears to be glossing over criticism if the rest of the paragraph isn't similarly condensed.
    The rest of the paragraph isn't as condensed not because it's positive, but because similar sentiments predominate among the reviews. That critique wasn't common, and it wasn't a large part of the review of those who made that point. Hence the brevity. - V

czar 16:30, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • @Czar: Thanks for your considered comments. Susun has responded to some, I've responded to the others. I've disagreed with a couple of substantive suggestions, but I'm happy to discuss them in greater detail, or ask for more input. Vanamonde (Talk) 21:34, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Replies above! czar 16:50, 21 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    @Czar: Apologies for a slow response time, work got busy this week. I've responded above; also, did you have response to the lowest two points? Vanamonde (Talk) 18:12, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    I was holding on those two pending response to the larger question about what depth to go into with the Ishi book. My strong take is that it's still uneven/undue weight to cover the one Ishi volume in that depth, i.e., depth that does not concern the biography of its author, especially compared to the way her other books are handled. I'm not familiar with another biography article that goes into singular depth on a sole volume when said book has its own summary style split page. But I wouldn't say that this necessarily makes the biography fall short of "engaging and professional" prose. Happy to support on prose—nice work! czar 07:43, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Comments from Harry

An excellent piece of writing. I'm really picking nits here.

Thanks! Comments nonetheless much appreciated. - V
  • I'm curious how common it was for a woman to study psychology in those days. You touch on it with her anthropology studies later on but I was curious whether there was any backlash to her earlier studies.
    It's a good question, but to be honest I've seen nothing that touches on this that's Kroeber specific. I'm sure SusunW could shed light on the larger question, but given that TK's psychology career was brief, I don't know if we could use any of it. - V
Sorry. I don't have a computer right now. It went to the shop on Thanksgiving and I am borrowing my husband's for a few minutes. The history of women in psychology is parallel to other fields. They were first barred from studying at all, then when admitted to study in the 1890s were not allowed to obtain degrees.[6] In 1906 of the 175 members of the APA only 22 were women.[7] Very little is known of the women who obtained degrees in psychology between 1906 and 1945, as like all women, they were not subjects documented for the historic record until the mid-1970s.[8][9] Obviously, all of these are general sources and none specify whether this impacted Kroeber. - S
  • adapted as made-for-television films in 1978[37] and 1992. Being really picky here but the MoS discourages links on dates and those links are arguably Easter eggs; is there a better way to work the links into the prose?
    It was an attempt to be concise, but I agree the easter eggs are a problem...reworked. - V
  • However, Pascal argued that the narrative's goal was one of assimilation "However" is a "word to watch" because it can imply contradictions that weren't necessarily intended. "Nonetheless" might be preferable here.
    I agree it's overused; it seemed okay here but no harm in "nonetheless", so changed. - V
  • Some dates for the retrospective reviews might be helpful for context.
    So added. 2019, 1997, 2013, 2010. - V
  • while others found it wanting as a scholarly biography is there any more to say on what was wanting?
    Stocking offers as an example TK's reference to Francis Galton as "John Galton", while Thoresen says it is "not a critically executed intellectual biography, and it stops short of making explicit several striking but muted psychological insights"...which I think are too much detail in one case, and too vague in the other...if you wish to see the sources, I'm happy to send them over. - V
  • She notes that the images included therein were poor I see someone has put a "who?" tag on this. Is "she" Kroeber?
    Missed the tags somehow...yes, Kroeber. Fixed. - V
  • It is all the record there is...We believe Ellipses should be spaced (preferably with a nbsp in front) per MOS:ELLIPSIS
    Done. - V
  • Another reviewer expressed disappointment Do they have a name?
    Lowell Bean, whose article oddly does not exist. Added. - V
  • She reflected on the impact of age gaps within marriage, using her own experience of having been much younger than her second husband and older than her third husband, in a 1976 essay. Dashes rather than commas might improve readability here.
    I admit to an entirely unreasonable prejudice against sentences hyphenated that way; but I've reworked in a way that I think reads easier than either - V
  • There's a "page needed" tag by footnote 65.
    Fixed, though really the entire article is arguing this point. - V

HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:39, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@HJ Mitchell: Thanks for the comments; I believe I've addressed them all. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:36, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm happy with your answers. What's left is mostly editorial judgement and that's usually best exercised by the people most familiar with the source material. Support. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:33, 24 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Corp Naomh

Nominator(s): Ceoil (talk) 10:56, 7 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Highly ornate and visually appealing (although badly damaged) 9th or 10th century bell shrine that was heavily rebuilt in the 15th century for the better. Originally commissioned as a reliquary container for the hand-bell relic of a, by then, long dead Irish saint (whose identity is now lost), it is now considered a high point of medieval Irish metalwork.

Much appreciation to Sailko for the images –the object is not normally on display for some odd reason, probably conservation as there is plenty scholarship. Part of a series on Insular art; feedback/insight/criticism gratefully welcome. Ceoil (talk) 10:56, 7 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]


  • "It was likely was held" - stray word in there
  • "Although recognised as the object as a reliquary" - should this be "Although recognising the object as a reliquary"
  • "The shrine consists of a sheet and cast metal mounds" - should "mould" be singular?
Changed this to "mounts" Ceoil (talk) 02:31, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "It is hollow, and made from a bronze casts" - should "cast" be singular?
  • "the back of his heads protrudes" - he has multiple heads?
  • "He wears a full-length and according to Bourke, "wing-like" tunic or cloak" => "He wears a full-length and, according to Bourke, "wing-like" tunic or cloak"
  • "described these designs and their "equal-rayed limbs" as an examples" - design example should presumably be singular?
  • Wikilink Book of Kells
  • "the rider's hands are placed inside their cloaks" - if you are referring to multiple riders then the apostrophe should be after the s
  • "dramatically curls-up at the back" - no need for that hyphen
  • "Two oversized birds perch on the horse's heads" - again, if you are talking about multiple horses then the apostrophe is in the wrong place
  • "Like the rider's cloaks, the bird's wings" - same here (both cases)
  • "In the panel, the animal's hindlegs" - same again
  • That's all I got :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:54, 8 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Thanks Chris, resolved now. Ceoil (talk) 19:09, 12 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • There's been a lot of subsequent work so I think I'll have to do a whole fresh review, but one thing that jumps out at a first glance is "It contains a series of much tinner confronted animals" - is that meant to say "thinner"......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:41, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Gog the Mild

Recusing to review. Placeholder - please ping me once the above has been addressed. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:20, 9 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • "likely belonging to an early Irish saint." Could we change the US English "likely" to the Irish English 'probably'. Similarly with "It was likely held by hereditary keepers".
    Done. Ceoil (talk) 20:37, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Sections from its original phase include the cross on the reverse and the ornate semi-circular cap on the top". I have reread this several times and have no idea what it means. What does it mean?
    "phase" means build period. I've tweaked a bit to make this clearer, but do need a clearer definition. Hold on. Ceoil (talk) 21:15, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Some indication in the lead of the size of the object would be helpful.
    Now added. Ceoil (talk) 20:37, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "after the dissolution of Tristernagh Abbey". Is it known when this happened?
    Clarified.. Ceoil (talk) 20:37, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Treasury room". Either upper case R or lower case t.
    It's The Treasury according to the NMI website, although the capital "The" looks weird to me. Thinking.
That's ok, cus the MoS suggests that "The word the at the start of a name is uncapitalized, regardless of the institution's own usage".
I ended up removing the claim, remembering that it wasn't there on last visit...the (underfunded) NMI website is notoriously poor and out of date. Ceoil (talk) 21:00, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:24, 12 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thanks for this Gog, given your current limited wiki time. 20:37, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
  • "Co. Westmeath". Abbreviations should be given in full at first mention.
    dabed. Ceoil (talk) 22:07, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "It was first mentioned and described in Henry Piers, Chorographical Description of the County of Westmeath." Should "Piers" have a possessive?
    Yes. Ceoil (talk) 22:07, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "it was found to contain a block of wood substituting a saint's hand-bell." I am puzzled; how was it know that a block of wood was meant to represent a hand bell? I mean, it was just a piece of wood.
    The metalwork's shape made it obvious that it was a bell shrine. Presumably the wood was placed so as it wouldn't collapse. Need to review the sources to cite this. Ceoil (talk) 22:07, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "it is generally accepted that the 15th century additions". This is the first mention of 15th century additions, so they need introducing properly.
  • The quote starting "laced...of brass, and..." is 62 words long. The MoS suggests "Format a long quote (more than about forty words ...) as a block quotation, indented on both sides."
    I think will chop this down and move parts to other sections. Hold on. Ceoil (talk) 06:06, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "RIA". Abbreviations should be given in full at first mention.
    done. Ceoil (talk) 22:07, 13 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "the 600-900AD period". En dash, not a hyphen, and a space before AD.
  • "the large central figure of Jesus on the cross. At 23 cm (9.1 in) high, it is around the size of a pocket bible". What is size of the bible. At the moment you have this as the figure of Jesus. If you mean the shrine then "it is" → 'the shrine is'.
    Now linked to pocket gospel book, which gives a clearer indication. Ceoil (talk) 02:40, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "produced between 600 and 900 AD with iron coated with bronze". Perhaps "with" → 'of'?
  • "It consists of a sheet and cast metal mounds". What are "mounds"? What is the "sheet" made of?
  • Monds = protrusions, the sheets now clarified as bronze. Ceoil (talk) 02:07, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "are from the 9th or 10th century phase." Consider deleting "phase". If not, what is it/does it mean?
  • "frontside" isn't a word. You probably mean 'front side'.
  • "and is composed from". Possibly "from" → 'of'? I don't think something can be "composed from".
  • Is there such a thing as "full profile"? I understood there to be either profile or full face. Happy to be corrected.
  • "beard and whiskers." What whiskers are there which are not part of the beard?
  • Removed whickers, but the point was the fine detail on such a small figure. Ceoil (talk) 01:57, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Raised bands divide the robe". Just a suggestion → 'Raised diagonal bands divide the robe'.
  • "Patrick's Cross". Why the italics?
  • "and designed in the so-called "Kells style" attached to a number of riding figures in earlier or contemporary". 1. I am not sure about "designed", perhaps 'shown'? 2. "attached"? Maybe something like 'also seen in'?
  • "has a long and thick mane, has a downwards looking head and eyes, and long and wide tail." Delete the second "has".
  • "The hind legs are positioned low underneath their body". "their" → 'its'.
  • Optional: "Keeping within this tradition" → 'In keeping with this tradition'.
  • "below the horse's knees rather than above the horse's shoulders." "above the horse's shoulders" → 'above its shoulders.'.
  • "the birds represent the martyrdom of the cleric". Which cleric?
  • The one they are facing, as in the section above. Done. Ceoil (talk) 01:57, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "Similar figures in the Book of Kells miniatures ... have short fringes and sometimes a bald crown." But the second illustration from the Book of Kells immediately below shows a rider with a full head of hair which curls up at the back.
  • The titles of works all seem to be in title case except for Johnson, 2005.
Working through these, most done. Ceoil (talk) 15:03, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "The bronze figure of Jesus and the silver cross were both added in the 15th century but are now badly damaged, as are large portions of the cross". "as are large portions of the cross" ? This is already covered by "are now badly damaged".
  • "a deeper cut protrusion". To protrude is "To extend from, above or beyond a surface or boundary; to bulge outward; to stick out." So how can one have a deeper protrusion?
    Incision. Ceoil (talk) 02:07, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • "lining the length of the shire". What's a "shire"?
  • Done. Ceoil (talk) 01:57, 17 November 2022 (UTC)