Gpedia:Village pump (policy)

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The policy section of the village pump is used to discuss already proposed policies and guidelines and to discuss changes to existing policies and guidelines.

Please see this FAQ page for a list of frequently rejected or ignored proposals. Discussions are automatically archived after remaining inactive for two weeks.

Userboxes and userspace - What's allowed, what isn't?

We need to discuss the applicability of WP:UPNOT and how much latitude we allow in terms of userboxes or userpages espousing political, religious, sociological or any other beliefs which could be regarded as divisive. There's been a recent increase of activity at WP:MFD over the past couple months, and what concerns me is the fact that our current system entrusts a handful of editors (myself included) to cast judgment on whether or not a userbox is in violation of user page guidelines. In light of the fact the guidelines do state that the Gpedia community is generally tolerant and offers fairly wide latitude in applying these guidelines to regular participants, I've started to wonder where we are supposed to draw the line.

Now as a full disclosure, I've been a regular and perhaps somewhat aggressive participant in these MFDs. I've usually !voted to keep, in most instances, because I tend to lean more towards what the quoted passage says above. No, we aren't a WP:SOAPBOX, but numerous regular editors (and a few admins) have been given latitude for expressing viewpoints on their userpage. If nothing else, I feel strongly that we ought to prioritize our efforts towards building an encyclopedia rather than seeking out minor userspace violations. My participation in this space, therefore, has been out of efforts to maintain the status quo rather than create an atmosphere that is hostile to our diverse userbase. I recognize that this may actually be counter-productive to my message, but it's why I've decided to go to the village pump finally, to get input from the community at large.

We've talked on and off about creating an RfC for userboxes. Are we at the point now where an RfC is necessary to settle the userbox question? I certainly don't want to kick off another massive conflict in the process. 🌈WaltCip-(talk) 16:48, 7 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I would support such an RfC, having prompted much of the discussion about this by nominating for deletiog things I felt were in clear violation of the rules (BLP attacks, advocacy of violence, discrimination, etc), but it seems even many of those were controversial. My personal belief is that all polemic and advocacy content should be at least discouraged if not removed entirely, but my main concerns are the aforementioned subjects. I think the top priority should be the extent to which users can express support for the use of political violence, military action, or terrorist organizations. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 17:05, 7 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
There was a very recently closed RFC at WT:User pages and a similar issue, particularly the alternative proposal. My problem with those proposal extend here, simply who makes the judgement? Either all such things should be banned, or we accept that we are banning those things we don't like. That's not to say that editors should have carte blanche to post anything on their userpages. If an editor posts text/images/iconography that singles out a specific group ("X people be eliminated", "X people shouldn't exist", "X people should be subservient") then they are attacking editors who are in those groups and WP:CIVIL applies. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested transmissions °co-ords° 22:00, 7 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
After reading through that, it's disappointing how many of the !votes either come down to WP:FREESPEECH, a right to violate WP:SOAPBOX, or that their specific extreme ideology should be exempt because WP:ILIKEIT. I maintain that the solution is to actually enforce WP:USERPAGES and WP:SOAPBOX as they stand, but at the very least, advocacy of violence (explicit or implied) should not be tolerated. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:12, 7 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You can say WP:ILIKEIT, but equally WP:IDONTLIKEIT applies. Personally I don't see why we have these boxes at all, beyond those about Gpedia (language boxes for instance), but I don't feel the end to impinge my opinion on other editors userpages. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested transmissions °co-ords° 22:20, 7 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
ILIKEIT and IDONTLIKEIT only apply if it's in absence of policy and guidelines that support it. Current policies and guidelines support the removal of divisive content on user pages. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:28, 7 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You brought up WP:ILIKEIT, I was only pointing out the opposite applies to what was nominated. What is or is not divisive is always a tight rope walk, between understanding the position of others and understanding our own biases. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested transmissions °co-ords° 22:40, 7 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
This is my point exactly. I don't think the current process that we have in place works for userpages and userboxes due to the limited number of editors involved in the process. MfD wasn't really built with continuous userspace trawling in mind, or at least, I think it envisioned higher participation than what we currently have. But right now, we do have a system that can be abused to favor or disfavor certain viewpoints (WP:ILIKEIT and WP:IDONTLIKEIT as mentioned above), because the surrounding policy and guidelines are subtly imprecise. 🌈WaltCip-(talk) 23:26, 7 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I remember a userbox issue over those that claimed something like "I support marriage define as between a man and a woman" that was more than a year ago that ended up with a lot of those deleted, and I think we really need to reconsider that in this framework as well. I can understand that editors that may express such views are likely in a small minority among editors, but in that discussion I remember that it was driven by editors that felt that that message was hostile to them and thus that the ubx needed to go. This also goes hand in hand with the NONAZIS essay, which doubles down on excluding editors that may have extremist viewpoints but otherwise willing to edit without disruption. We definitely do not want editors make othe editors feel so uncomfortable due to an expression of what they believe that us purposely hostile and calls out an editor or group of editors. But we also state that WP is a commonplace of ideas and you as editors will likely encounter other ideas that will make you uncomfortable, and WP cannot really protect you from that. There's definitely some balance needed here because I think we have overreacted on ubx and need to bring it back a bit. Or otherwise be very clear the difference between expressing a view that is nonspecific to whom it may be intended, and expressing opinions that are clearly meant to disrupt WP. Masem (t) 22:15, 7 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
(FWIW, the discussion I recalled was this ANI and the linked XFDs [1]) Masem (t) 01:45, 8 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Oh, yes, I remember that. Although the consensus for that thread wasn't unanimous, it's clear from a consensus standpoint that the community does seem to frown upon discriminatory userboxes. This one became a particular lightning rod for whatever reason - call it serendipity or just the surrounding circumstances such as current events or whatnot. But that being said, I do also think there was some desire that the userbox and userpage question be settled in a manner so that we are not continually finding ourselves sniping at userspace on an ad hoc basis. 🌈WaltCip-(talk) 13:43, 8 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I will repeat what I said during the debate about NONAZIS: We should ENCOURAGE editors with extreme viewpoints to identify themselves on their user pages … so that the rest of us know who they are and can monitor what they do elsewhere in the project… to make sure they don’t edit the more public parts of WP in a disruptive way. Blueboar (talk) 22:41, 7 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Perhaps Gpedia should compile a list of beliefs and opinions permitted to be expressed in userspace. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:43, 7 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    And not only that, perhaps we should entrust a select handful of editors with determining the content of this list, as well as ensuring its subsequent enforcement. 🌈WaltCip-(talk) 23:23, 7 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    The problem is that that group would be a likely target for harassment, so it would be best if the members of that group were kept secret. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested transmissions °co-ords° 23:26, 7 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Also, since we don’t want people gaming the system, we should keep the list of beliefs and expressions a secret. Only the secret group of enforcers can know what they are enforcing! Blueboar (talk) 00:22, 8 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    We'd need a way to keep it secret. Reliable sources state that two can keep a secret if one of them is dead. I propose that one living person and one deceased person be chosen randomly to serve. Since this is an even number of people, disputes will be settled with rock paper scissors. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:30, 8 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    To avoid gaming the system by running out the clock, we will need to ensure that if the living person of the pair dies, the dead one is revived or reincarnated. DMacks (talk) 04:59, 8 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • If we are going down this path, and I'm not sure that's wise, we desparately need to become rather more evenhanded about both the rules and their execution. Nosebagbear (talk) 20:51, 8 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • We should just get rid of all the damn things. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:01, 10 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I may not be aware of all the relevant guidelines right now but here's my opinion: there's no cause for alarm. I wouldn't be comfortable with excessively patrolling what users put on their paged. Fine, if it violates Gpedia:No personal attacks or targets specific people or editors, then it would be appropriate to take action. Otherwise I don't see why we would be need to police userboxes including the "i see marriage as between a man and a woman". We may not all agree but this harms no one and if the editor in question is able to edit productively without bias getting in the way, I don't see what's wrong. — Python Drink (talk) 18:40, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    I strongly disagree. In your particular example, that's harmful to LGBT users, and by extension to Gpedia as a whole. Users with such a statement in user space are clearly suggesting that LGBT users are less welcome here, and that affects the ability of Gpedia to maintain a healthy environment to retain editors. All polemic content has such an effect, and that's why it's inappropriate on Gpedia. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:01, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Yes, LGBT users might get their feelings hurt if they see such a statement. But what else would a statement like that do? I can't say much. Are we gonna act like anti-LGBT ubx are the only things that might hurt someone's feelings . Pretty sure you'll agree that this is a diverse community and some of us feel pretty strongly about certain things. Consider this: if someone had a ubx that says that they wouldn't befriend a Republican or feminist, surely that might make such people feel "less welcome" as you said? (Even I myself cringe hard when I see certain ubx but I wouldn't think of denying them that) Do we bend over to accommodate them? What do you think would happen if we applied this consistently? Would you also want a ubx gone that says the "Bible is a big book of fairy tales" as that might make Christians feel "less welcome". Hopefully you get the point I'm making, namely we can't afford to accommodate people's feelings so much. No matter what you do, people's feelings will be hurt. It should be up to them to suck it up—unless it's targeted harassment or incitement to violence which is already covered by policy — Python Drink (talk) 20:03, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Genuine question, @Black Kite. Would my examples count as unnecessary bigotry? By the way, my previous comment was a response to the notion of users "feelings unwelcome" not exactly "bigotry" whatever that means to you (which is why I'm asking for clarification) — Python Drink (talk) 20:38, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Every single one of those examples is counterproductive to the construction of an encyclopedia, not to mention just plain rude. I would vote to delete any and all of those. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:22, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Thebiguglyalien, you might as well ban ubx. I think basically whenever we express an opinion or affirm something about us, we rusk offending someone. Perhaps there should be much more clearer clarification as to what's allowed. Although this discussion is making it more complicated than it needs to be. By the way, how would you rate the "unwelcoming factor" of my ubx? Lol — Python Drink (talk) 20:38, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Don’t move to draft perfunctory!

You should not move articles to draft space just for them being new and unfinished!

I created an article and it was moved to draft almost immediately, Draft:Raksila Artificial Ice Rink Pakkalan kenttä. The reason given was, that there were no sources. OK, fine, I understand. So I add sources. It’s done in an hour. Now, to have the article un-draftified, it will likely take months, or so it at least says in the information box provided.

Wouldn’t it be better to just contact me and ask me to add sources to the very new article I had written? (If you feel you cannot do it yourself.)

I think draft ought to be used only for articles which we have given some time to become better, with reasonable suggestions to the writer, but the article still hasn’t become better. Bandy långe (talk) 23:07, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Bandy långe, articles done directly in main space should be reader-ready from the beginning. Start articles either in a user sandbox or in Draft space. You can move them to main space yourself when they are ready. Review is optional for autoconfirmed users like yourself. StarryGrandma (talk) 19:30, 16 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@StarryGrandma, so? Please comment on the topic in stead of giving advice not asked for. Gpedia does not work the way you seem to think, articles are not created ready from the start. The whole point is that this encyclopedia is a collaborative effort where people write things together. Bandy långe (talk) 22:52, 16 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Bandy långe, you seem to have missed the part where StarryGrandma says you don't have to wait for months for it to be undraftified, you can just move it to mainspace yourself. And I'm curious why you would publish an article to mainspace before adding the sources you used to write it? JoelleJay (talk) 02:04, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
She did not say that. She said that if I had started the article in draft or in a sandbox, I could then move it to main space myself, not if someone else moved it to draft. Bandy långe (talk) 18:23, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It doesn't matter how it got to draftspace, you can always move it back to mainspace as an autoconfirmed user. JoelleJay (talk) 19:58, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
If I'm reading the timestamps right, the article was in mainspace for seven hours before being draftified. This is well above the minimum guidance at WP:NPP. Also, if you object to the draftification, you should just move it back to mainspace using the more menu, then clicking move. Hope this helps. –Novem Linguae (talk) 06:57, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No, it says it should stay in draft space until it has been reviewed. As far as I understand the information, you are not even supposed to approve the article while it is there (but I did that in a way anyway, by adding the sources; I suppose I should appologise for that). It is therefor generally considered better, I suppose, to have it in draft spce limbo for months than to just remind the writer to add references to it. Do you mean I am not obliged to wait for a review? Won’t it just be moved back to draft if I overrule the person moving it to draft by moving it back? Bandy långe (talk) 18:23, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No, it says it should stay in draft space until it has been reviewed. As far as I understand the information, you are not even supposed to approve the article while it is there (but I did that in a way anyway, by adding the sources; I suppose I should appologise for that). Where are you finding this very incorrect information? None of the policies or guidelines related to draftspace say any of that. JoelleJay (talk) 20:01, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This is a good demonstration of Gpedia's unreliability. First, the OP treats this site as a blog, posting something or other without any backing. Because, the sources will-appear (?) soon (?). Then, the blogger expects others to come and validate the "contribution", doing the hard work. However, as anyone that ever contributed facts in Gpedia knows, the wikitext and its sourcing are intimately linked, and both the substance and the presentation of an article depend on the context and the content of the sources supporting it. And that is even before applying conceptually higher-level policies such as NPOV and impartiality.

I can't see how one can offer a coherent article without simultaneously adding a minimum of basic sources. Off to draftspace, come back when the article has something to say. (talk) 13:25, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

You got it wrong. Maybe it’sbecause you are a casual visitor to Gpedia, not having a login, so you don’t know how this works. It is the person who sends an article to be reviewed in draft space, who thinks someone else should take care of it. He thinks the person who started the article should not continue working on it, but that it should be reviewed by others within some months. You should read about what Gpedia draft is. Bandy långe (talk) 18:23, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Bandy långe, you are conflating "review" in the New Page Patrol sense (as is linked in the draftification notice) with "review" in the WP:AfC sense. NPP reviews all articles created by non-autopatrolled editors, but a review is not required to remain in or move a draft to mainspace. AfC is a completely different process for submitting articles into mainspace and is not necessary for autoconfirmed users. You can bypass AfC completely by moving the article yourself.
As for He thinks the person who started the article should not continue working on it, I have no idea where you got this idea. The draftification notice explicitly says you can continue working on the draft: Your article is now a draft where you can improve it undisturbed for a while. JoelleJay (talk) 20:22, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
§ Don’t move to draft perfunctory!
You should not move articles to draft space just for them being new and unfinished!
It seems you object to your mainspace post being drafted in the first place. Your draftspace-related lecture is a newer thing. You claim to know something that should be published in Gpedia. We want to know why. Don't reply to me or anybody; just add reliable references. There, situation resolved. (talk) 22:25, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Bandy långe: Gpedia articles in article space are often a work in progress. But to exist in article space they need to meet the "Is an article of this topic allowed to exist in mainspace?" criteria which is mostly/usually WP:Notability. And usually this means supplying 2 (maybe one) GNG type sources. It will inevitably get reviewed regarding this by New Page Patrol. IMO it is good practice and a reasonable expectation that new articles in mainspace (at least within an hour) include GNG type sourcing to establish wp:notability and that they reside somewhere else as a draft until they have that GNG sourcing. But if it meets those criteria, IMO it is OK to be in mainspace regardless of the amount of work needed in other areas. And when it meets those criteria, you can move it yourself, you don't need to wait. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:03, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Really? The information about the draft space and the need for draft review suggests otherwise, I think. Bandy långe (talk) 19:47, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Bandy långe What information about draft space and draft review are you reading/looking at that makes you think otherwise? Perhaps there's some policy page or guideline that needs to be clarified. ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 20:01, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Not sure even which part of my post they are talking about. If it's the "you can move it" part, I think that boilerplate text on one of the draftify templates falsely implies otherwise; maybe that is where Bandy långe's impression came from. North8000 (talk) 20:55, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Editors that use this draftification script (including me) are given default language to use on the article creator's user talk page. It ends with "When you feel the article meets Gpedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page."Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 21:13, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The OP has identified a common problem. Editors who have made 10 edits and whose accounts are more than a few days old have the ability to create articles directly in the mainspace, and also the ability to move articles out of the Draft: namespace. However, almost none of them know this.
I suspect that the more active reviewers don't actually want this to be well known. If they have to personally approve everything, then the mainspace will always meet their standards of being "reader ready". If (almost) anyone can move pages, and they know it, then the mainspace will inevitably be sullied by all of these WP:IMPERFECT articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:57, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The draftification script is deceptive/wrong. It says that when you're ready "click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page"" thus implying that that is THE (=only) next step. And most editors will assume that such is authoritative or based on some rule. BTW I think that you you made some pretty incorrect and negative assumptions about active reviewers. NPP reviewers mostly want to just get the review done, and "perfection" isn't the standard. I think that AFC reviews are a lot tougher only because the the system coerces the reviewers to be overly cautious and thus tough. A AFC approval is implicitly a stamp of approval of everything about the article. A NPP approval is implicitly less, something along the lines of "an article of this topic is allowed to exist in article space" North8000 (talk) 21:16, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think that AFC reviews are a lot tougher only because the the system coerces the reviewers to be overly cautious and thus tough. Might not even be this. AFC is similar to NPP except AFC doesn't do WP:BEFORE. AFC requires all sources to be evaluated to already be in the article. This makes it de facto slightly tougher than NPP. The rest is very similar. –Novem Linguae (talk) 21:55, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think that what you said is structurally true and how it should be, but not true in practice. I think that in practice, an AFC approval is defacto sort of the reviewer signing off that the overall article has no significant problems, which is a broader and tougher standard than NPP. While a NPP'er may tag an article for other quality issues, the reasons for failing an article are much narrower. Another reason for this is that failure at NPP is a more "severe" act (AFD or the reviewer moving the article out of article space etc.) than an AFC reviewer just saying that it needs more work and re-submittal. North8000 (talk) 22:17, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I agree with North about the incentive structure, but both review systems (NPP and AFC) suffer from this. Nobody wants to be the "bad reviewer" who "approved" a "bad article". I've seen articles declined because:
  • the sources weren't in English.
  • the refs weren't formatted using ref tags.
  • a navbox is "promotional" (it looked like the list of names at the top of Template:Disney).
  • the newly appointed CEO of Disney isn't notable.
  • a 1300-word-long news article entirely about the subject doesn't show notability (it's in-depth, secondary, independent, and reliable, but still not enough for that reviewer).
  • thousand-year-old National Treasures of Korea haven't demonstrated notability.
  • BLPs should have sources at the end of every sentence.
I've also seen reviewers decline autobiographies, mostly of young people who think that being one of the millions of aspiring professional musicians or athletes should make them eligible for an article; I list only obvious errors here, not the everyday, run-of-the-mill decisions to decline articles.
To give you an illustration of the misaligned incentives here, consider Draft:Richard Winkler (Producer) which Greenman declined today. It is a decision that is both correct and incorrect. The subject "has won seven Tony Awards and five Olivier Awards", which pretty much guarantees notability. No Broadway producer going to win that many Tonys and Oliviers and not get written up in at least his hometown newspaper (that'd be the Detroit Free Press, if anyone wants to search), and a dozen "well-known and significant awards" easily clears WP:ANYBIO. AFC is supposed to accept anything that is likely to survive AFD, and this will. But the sources that are presently cited in the article are unimpressive, and precisely because his name is on everything, it's going to take more than a couple of seconds with a search engine to find sources that do more than just mention his name and his role in a play. Worse, there appears to be a television producer with the same name, so nearly all of the sources contain no more than a single sentence about this Winkler, some are about the other Winkler, and you're trying to find the tiny fraction that actually help you write a whole article. So you decline it, because the cited sources are unimpressive, and it will take some effort, probably by someone who knows which sources to focus on if you want to know more about a theater person, to improve the sourcing, but you probably shouldn't because it is about a notable subject, except if you accept it, then someone might yell at you about the weak sourcing, but if you don't, you're declining a BLP that met ANYBIO twelve times over, over a problem that can be solved through normal editing, but...
You can see the bind we're putting the reviewers in. There is no action this reviewer can take that everyone will agree is correct. We also don't have a culture of deference towards the reviewers making decisions on borderline cases, the way we do with admins at WP:AE. The only thing we can say with reasonable certainty is that there is more scrutiny on accepting than on declining, so you're slightly less likely to get yelled at for declining a weak article on a notable subject than for accepting it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:29, 29 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
All of what @WhatamIdoing said is exactly why it's easier for the original author to include the sources that the draft or article was based on, from the start. Surely, @Bandy långe, you didn't write the article out of thin air, and you have ths sources readily at hand, correct? If you have edited here long enough to create articles directly in article space, it looks like you are expected to know the requirements. Just my thoughts. David10244 (talk) 07:04, 1 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Technically, avoiding speedy deletion per {{db-person}} requires that there be a Gpedia:Credible claim of significance in the Gpedia article itself, not just in the cited sources. One might also have sources that support ANYBIO notability (e.g., Variety (magazine) saying only "Winkler has won seven Tony Awards" in passing), but the reviewer might be looking for GNG-style sources. Merely including the sources from the start doesn't solve the problem. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:30, 1 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I consider myself reasonably intelligent, but I was submitting articles for years before I discovered that I could polish my work in draft and then move it to mainspace. It was the wording of the draft template that threw me. Just saying!! Downsize43 (talk) 07:54, 1 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This is a common gap in knowledge, and we are not really incentivized to tell editors the truth about it. (You can also polish your work in a userspace sandbox, which is the choice that most experienced editors seem to make.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:31, 1 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Using user page subpages for article development is covered in Gpedia:User pages#Terminology and page locations, but new users have a lot of other P&G pages they should look at, as well, so they may miss it. Donald Albury 21:10, 1 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Galactica and RS

Platform 9¾ at King's Cross Station

Meta's Galactica seems to be able to rapidly generate WP pages, although at present they're going to be relatively easy to identify as fake. Presumably they're going to get better in the future.

My question is really about the fake references it might generate and how we are going to better protect ourselves against fake content, fake notability and fake RS. For me, one of the great weaknesses of AfD discussions has always been the possibility of printed RS which exist on a dusty library shelf. If we have AI that can generate plausible looking book references, isn't it going to be an increasing challenge to identify completely fraudulent pages? JMWt (talk) 10:02, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Well how are fake but plausible-seeming references generated by organic intelligence dealt with now? I wouldn't overwork myself trying to find out. There is no formal validation of citations for accuracy or relevance in Gpedia, and there is no other metric that will help the answer. It is left to the community to haphazardly and erratically certify references, at least outside of vanity projects like so-called "good" or "featured" articles. If anything the pre-seed of native AI present now (the relationship of relevant Wikidata properties with article verification policies/guidelines) when applied is likely to make things worse, as there is no context validation of Wikidata data to begin with. (talk) 16:22, 17 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
And on the other hand, there's Assigning Numbers. RAN1 (talk) 20:40, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@JMWt, is your concern that the machine-learning system will write a book, that book will get published somewhere/by someone, and the book will be cited in Gpedia? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:00, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@WhatamIdoing I think it is more plausible that some machine learning system generates references that look like very old books that would take a lot of effort to check. I don't think it needs to get to the stage of actually publishing anything to be a problem. JMWt (talk) 08:25, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The question posed was not answered: why are machines producing articles with inappropriate references a bigger concern than humans doing so? Some of the latter may be doing so now, undetected. And does it matter what kind of entity publishes misinformation? In any case compiling an encyclopedia is a mechanical process, there is nothing creative about it. Non-human machines will be able to replicate it easily. (talk) 14:36, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@JMWt, if the machine-generated pseudo-book isn't published, then how would a Gpedia editor have access to its contents?
69.203, at some point, quantity becomes its own quality. A human who types all day without stopping (e.g., to interview anyone or to double-check facts) can usually only produce a volume of text equal to about one book a week. A room full of computers could produce a book a minute without stopping. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:11, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Wasn't there a recent convoluted discussion/RFC about mass article production/publishing articles at scale? (talk) 01:56, 21 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@WhatamIdoing Galactica can generate convincing looking references. An editor could just machine-generate a whole WP page including the refs. All completely bogus. Maybe I'm missing some detail that you are asking me? JMWt (talk) 11:21, 21 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@JMWt, Are you concerned about ghost references ("nothing remotely resembling the content appears in this real source") and hoax citations ("There is no Platform 9¾ at King's Cross Station, so your content can't be supported by a source located there")? WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:52, 21 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@WhatamIdoing Galactica was, I think, creating completely bogus references. If they are recent, we can probably identify them with a search of the ISDN or DOI. If they are old, that's going to be nearly impossible. It might also be copying real references and claiming they contain facts that they don't. Both are a problem, no? JMWt (talk) 07:12, 22 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Given how much research has been done (for five or ten years now) on matching newspaper articles to Gpedia statements, I wonder why they would bother creating a hoax citation. Just to see if the software could mimic the style, with plausible content? But they could plug in the other system, and get real citations to real sources. There'd be some limits on accuracy ("A traffic problem of nightmarish proportions occurred when Joe Film stopped to sign an autograph and a clamoring crowd of thousands formed around the star. Police were called charged the actor with Pranks without a Permit in the third degree": a simple software program could find "Joe Film" and "traffic", but might not be able to figure out whether it should be written to suggest guilt, innocence, or even whether it's worth including.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:08, 22 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

What is wrong with word "American" and "British"?

Why people write "UK version" and "US version" over "British version" and "American version". Why not "FR version" instead of "French version"? UK is an abbreviation so the full version would be "United Kingdom version"? Eurohunter (talk) 16:07, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

because they want to? how is this a policy question --Golbez (talk) 16:12, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Aren't "UK" and "US" acronyms? (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 16:49, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The United Kingdom and Great Britain aren't exactly the same places, the same as the United States and the Americas aren't the same. But, we should follow what the sources say. This isn't a policy discussion though. Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 17:16, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Not exactly parallel. American used as an adjective in English (as opposed to americano in Spanish) almost always refers to the United States (with a few exceptions like the Organization of American States). America is not quite as one-sided, but as a stand-alone noun also usually means the United States. We have an article at American (word). --Trovatore (talk) 19:06, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Golbez: What they want and who are they? @Lee Vilenski: Citizens of the United Kingdom are British and citizens of the United States are Americans so they are actually British and American. "Follow what the sources say" doesn't makes sense - it's like saying use "French Republic" after source - no we would say just "France" describing the country in most cases. Eurohunter (talk) 21:29, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The Northern Irish would have to disagree with your assessment. Sources don't say "French Republic", why would they? Please provide such references. Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 23:40, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Try going to Glasgow and telling people they're not Scottish but have to use British. See WP:UKNATIONALS, there no good solution that covers all bases. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested transmissions °co-ords° 20:39, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No, they aren't acronyms. An acronym is an abbreviation that is pronounced as if it were a word. That is, "UK" would be an acronym if it were pronounced to rhyme with "buck", but it isn't. It is pronounced "U-K". Georgia guy (talk) 02:26, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The Oxford English Dictionary and Gpedia's acronym article don't agree with you. Both say that acronyms may either be pronounced as single words or as individual letters. CodeTalker (talk) 06:30, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yuck. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 07:48, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
And my opinion of the OED just dropped precipitously. I don't expect any more from Gpedia, but Oxford disappoints me. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:26, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The OED has always rightly followed usage, rather than being prescriptive. Johnbod (talk) 16:57, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I am nearly 50 years old and I had never come across anyone calling things like FBI "acronyms" before about 10 years ago. And even then it was from people who commonly made obvious errors such as confusing it's/its, to/too/two, or (mindbogglingly) ancestor/descendant. So, not the sorts of "usage" I would expect any dictionary to lend support to. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 23:11, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
FWIW, the OED has a citation of "acronym" used with letters pronounced separately in 1940, so it's hardly a recent usage, despite what you've personally come across. The first citation for the meaning "pronounced as a word" is later, in 1943. CodeTalker (talk) 18:50, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yep, and in British English, acronyms that are pronounced as words are often written with only an initial capital letter (i.e., Nato or Nasa), but if its an initialism and each letter is pronounced (i.e., DCMS or FBI) it's written all uppercase (regardless of whether or not points are used). — Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 18:53, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
An acronym is single word/abbreviation made of the first letter(s) of each word. It's got nothing to do with pronunciation. FBI is an acronym and no one pronounces it as "fbee". Unlike, say J. Phys. Chem. which isn't an acronym, because it's not a single word. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:19, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I wonder whether acronyms should be considered abbreviations. First, they apply to multiple terms. Secondly, since they regularly use only one letter they bear no discernible relationship to the word they represent. Rendered without the dot separator between characters, they could be defined as initial-letter concatenations of multiple words. (talk) 18:20, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It's a continuum: All initialisms are acronyms and all acronyms are abbreviations, but not all abbreviations are acronyms and not all acronyms are initialisms. — Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 18:48, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
This is getting convoluted, but apparently not all linguists consider initialisms to be acronyms, and the word's etymology (from the Greek compound "edge/end"+"name") seems to imply a distinct term named from end-of-word letters. (talk) 20:28, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm not sure about that etymology. The OED shows it coming from initial + -ism (first use around 1899) and initial coming from the Latin initiālis from the Latin initium, meaning 'beginning', and referring to the beginning of each word in a phrase (i.e., its initials). Oops, sorry just realized you were referring to acronym's etymology. — Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 21:24, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Support acronyms and initialisms. (talk) 05:35, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Support... What? There's no proposal here. Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 21:40, 20 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Support supporting when there is no proposal. ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 20:55, 22 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
OOjs UI icon subtract-destructive.svg Oppose supporting supporting in general, although I OOjs UI icon add-constructive.svg Support opposing supporting. — Qwerfjkltalk 21:00, 22 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Political propaganda untruths

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This article is full of slanders. Marjorie Taylor Greene — Preceding unsigned comment added by BenHistory (talkcontribs) 14:25, 22 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

What is your policy-related question?
Generally, if it bothers you too much, attempt to fix it. (talk) 15:32, 22 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Well, the article has a WP:BLUELOCK. However, BenHistory, you can suggest changes, inline with WP:s policies and guidelines, and supported by WP:RS, at Talk:Marjorie Taylor Greene. Good luck! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:10, 22 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Child safe searches

should wikipedia searches be child safe (talk) 00:21, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Generally, this will be not the case because of the policy WP:REDACTION and I don't expect you'll see any momentum to change that. If this is important to you, the best idea is probably a client-side solution like web filtering software. Jahaza (talk) 03:51, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The very first problem with something like this defining what is meant be "child safe" in some objective way, and the second problem is getting consensus on a single definition given that everybody has different ideas about what children should and shouldn't be able to see. One common suggestion is basing it on something like articles in Category:Sex. However, that would cover articles that most people find innocuous such as ZW sex-determination system, Golden calf, List of female Nobel laureates and Wildflower. Restricting it to the top-level of the category but not subcategories would block Female and Sex segregation but not Sexual intercourse or Paedophilia. Thryduulf (talk) 15:10, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Thryduulf is correct that there is no universal definition of what "child safe" means. For example, the general consensus in the United States seems to be that violence is OK, but nudity is not. I would argue exactly the opposite. I'm sure you have your own idea of what's acceptable and what's not.
I like the way IMDB does this. Rather than assign ratings, reviewers describe specific things which are depicted in the films. "'Balls' is said once in a vulgar context." "Several positive characters are killed or mortally wounded on-screen during the movie, which may be disturbing for the audience.", "we see their backsides ... quite a bit". I think there's a great opportunity for a third-party rating service along these lines. Build a database and invite people to describe potentially objectionable aspects of articles. Expose these ratings though a publicly accessible API. Now, somebody could build a search tool which sits on top of Mediawiki's own search API and uses your ratings API to provide filtering according to criteria you select. "Don't show any articles which contain pictures of human nudity". "Don't show any articles which describe violence". "Don't show any articles which contain any of this list of words".
I don't believe content filtering is something wikipedia should be involved in. But our licensing and API availability make it possible for people to do their own. It's not a trivial undertaking, but there's nothing that's fundamentally difficult about it. A proof-of-concept would be a reasonable semester project for an undergraduate software engineering course. The hardest part is getting enough quality crowd-sourced data, but that would be true no matter who implements it. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:45, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
And What Gpedia is not#Gpedia is not censored is policy. I will note that section of the policy was originally entitiled "Gpedia is not censored for the protection of minors", so the policy that we do not censor the contents of Gpedia to protect children goes back to the very early days of Gpedia, and would require a major shift in one of the fundamental policies of the project. Donald Albury 15:21, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Any sort of search where things were censored would have to be external, as we are WP:NOTCENSORED. Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 15:30, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
If you want a version of Gpedia that is safe(er) for kids, try Kiddle. They take our freely licensed content, censor and rewrite it so that it is more kid-friendly, and republish it under a free license. ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 15:40, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Fifteen years ago, when I was running the library/computer center/network at a small school, I added a similar "kid-friendly" WP clone site to the school's computers. Good to know that something similar is still around. Donald Albury 16:58, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Perhaps the OP is referring to the new and "improved" search bar in Vector-2022. Go to, and try searching for "analgesic". But type very slowly, letting the page update after each letter. Readers (whether children or adults) should not have NSFW content WP:GRATUITOUSly forced on them like that. Search for the name of a body part, click on the article, and you should expect to see a picture of that body part. But not any page with a common prefix. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 22:33, 23 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yeah, we should be filtering search suggestions, as I think Google and others do, to avoid this problem. I haven't looked but I bet there's already a phab ticket and it's probably years old. Levivich (talk) 02:21, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The challenge with filtering is that you'd have to start classifying articles as ineligible for inclusion in search autosuggest, and I'm not sure if there's already an easy classification to re-use. You could specify certain categories, but those are always subject to change and it would be easy for anyone to troll autosuggest by adding/removing the relevant categories from their article of interest. The major search engines do this with a combination of algorithmic analysis and human-curated lists, and I foresee both practical issues and editor drama from trying something like that here. Taking the "analgesic" example above, I see that analgesic does appear immediately below the potentially NSFW result. If people are truly searching for "analgesic" on a large scale, then a better ranking implementation would go a long way to solving this issue without getting into filtering and classification. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 02:40, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I agree, ranking is probably better than filtering, but I don't think it will be difficult to come up with a list of naughty words and phrases to exclude from autosuggest. And also, it wouldn't be hard to have a "safe search" toggle like Google has, either, so people can filter or not filter results. And we could turn safe search on for school IP ranges. Levivich (talk) 03:17, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Let's please not go down the road of automatic censorship for schools. When a school kid wonders if their penis is normal and comes to us looking for pictures to compare against, we should be showing them pictures of penises. Because if we don't, they'll go elsewhere to find the information they seek.
Google operates under a different set of constraints than we do. Google makes money by selling advertising displayed as part of their search results. When Walmart says, "We won't spend any of our huge advertising budget here if our ads show up next to pictures of penises", Google listens. And they build tools like "safe search" to placate advertisers like Walmart. That's not an issue here. -- RoySmith (talk) 04:05, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
To be clear, I was talking about the images that will soon appear in the search the suggestions on desktop, and already appear on mobile. I don't think links to any article should be hidden from the suggestions. But showing File:Wiki-analsex.png to everyone who searches for a subject starting with "ana"? Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 04:31, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hmmm, from reading phab:T306246, it looks like we might be able to take care of that ourselves, through MediaWiki:Pageimages-denylist. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 04:45, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Strongly disagree with the idea of censoring encyclopeic content or supporting any third-party efforts to do so. Wiki articles are not movies, and any effort to assign movie-style labels or ratings to articles would inevitably be misused to deny access to articles like sexual intercourse in public libraries and other institutions. –dlthewave 13:59, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Standard for harmful content on user pages

There's been some debate regarding what constitutes harmful content in userspace and what's considered disruptive or inflammatory. Personally, I've leaned toward not allowing any sort of strong political expression, seeing it as inherently disruptive. I'd like to suggest a compromise:

Users may not advocate or endorse the violation of any rights described in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

This declaration of human rights was written in 1948 in response to the Holocaust, and it's the most widely agreed upon list of human rights. Advocating the violation of human rights would be a very obvious way to determine whether a user has crossed a line, and it aligns with the current policies against Nazism, sexism, pro-slavery, etc. To respond to what I expect would be the primary concern: no, it's not a precise standard. There would still be discussions about what is and isn't acceptable. But it would be significantly more precise than the current standard of gut feeling and WP:IDONTLIKEIT, giving a clear foundation for these discussions that currently doesn't exist. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:13, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

pinging WaltCip because you've posted about this problem a few times. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:14, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
My personal line for this sort of thing is having/advocating content on user pages that is negative toward groups of people. Though I could also see extending it toward political content. But the Universal Declaration does seem fine as a baseline. SilverserenC 21:16, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Unless one feels UDHR is another worthless feelgood statement, good only for decorum, legal and political grandstanding and for making gullible people believing there is/will be some sort of "progress". Let's pretend that most of the signatories have not once violated any of the enumerated rights since the document was signed. One may realistically consider it a failure, just like its sponsoring institution. It is interesting that it was proposed only a few years after civilized, well-educated and democratically elected people used nuclear weapons (twice) on civilian targets. This is not an anti-American statement, or even a political one, it is factual. That fact (that universal human rights can easily be violated by well-meaning people) never meaningfully entered the discourse around that document. The fact being ignored, keeps reappearing, over and over. (talk) 21:55, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
One of said rights is 'freedom to hold opinions without interference'. Does this include the right to hold opinions incompatible with the Declaration? I think we may have encountered a paradox... AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:06, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The paradox exists only because the document exists. Otherwise any opinion is just that, an opinion. There was a quote by Brecht about calling an overflowing river "violent", when the banks that constrain it define the overflow. (talk) 22:33, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
This brings us back to a fundamental debate about human rights: are they divinely granted and endowed upon us by a Creator, or are they conferred by a document or a rule of law? Are they revocable at any time or are they innate and irrevocable, even when unrecognized and violated? Elizium23 (talk) 09:52, 27 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Unfortunately, most people haven't read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, much less ponder its contents or its message, so I doubt this would be a very effective rule. I'm with AndyTheGrump on this one. But moreover, I think any potential RfC focused on userboxes with political or divisive content needs to focus on being an all-or-nothing affair, specifically to prevent posses from running MfD and determining what is and isn't allowable. I don't see there being much compromise available beyond that. 🌈WaltCip-(talk) 00:42, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I bet i could get my userpage deleted just by selective quoting of the Articles. fiveby(zero) 01:03, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That likely won't fly, considering that the Islamic world rejected the UDHR and drafted the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam in its place to remove referenced to religious freedom. 2603:7080:8F02:2B11:D13C:AE3B:86FB:FB29 (talk) 15:16, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

IP vandalism guideline

I want to make IP vandalism a guideline. I have already made the page. SpyridisioAnnis Discussion 15:39, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

This (assuming we're talking about Gpedia:IP vandalism) is redundant to the vandalism policy. firefly ( t · c ) 16:12, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That's because there should be multiple vandalism guidelines about different ways of vandalizing Gpedia SpyridisioAnnis Discussion 04:40, 27 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
One such guide is enough, unless any type of vandalism is too complex to handle that covering it in the one guide would make the guide confusing or otherwise unreadable. Animal lover |666| 06:20, 28 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

RFC Related to Reliable Sourcing

I'm requesting input at Talk:Jason_David_Frank#RFC:_Cause_of_Death, specifically on a dispute related to Gpedia's reliable-sourcing policy; one user has suggested a few implications of the policy that I don't think are supported by text or practice. TMZ has reported that, per anonymous "law-enforcement sources," Jason David Frank died by suicide. The aforementioned user has said that this report cannot be included on the JDF page. There are three aspects of this dispute, all related to WP:RS.

  1. Does WP require an official statement from family or law enforcement? (According to the user: "we 100% . . . need an official statement from his management team or law enforcement.")
  2. If an authority itself relies on anonymous sources, can that authority be cited? (According to the user: "Doesn't matter if it's a death, sports transaction, or whatever per that policy, no citations based on anonymous sources.")
  3. Is TMZ an unreliable source? (Note: WP:TMZ, an essay, has some thoughts on that subject; it recommends explicitly attributing information to TMZ.)

Given how differently he and I read existing policy, I think third-party perspectives would be helpful.-- (talk) 08:09, 27 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"Deleted image removed" - how long is long enough?

While perusing punctuation errors, I found that Strongwoman has a not-uncommon feature in Gpedia articles, a block of hidden text saying up front, "Deleted image removed". In 2009. Can we please have a bot scour all these ancient deleted images and purge them from the Wikitext altogether? BD2412 T 23:05, 27 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Not sure there is any policy/guideline/etc requiring these to be made, retained, or removed. They are still actively being added (e.g. Special:Diff/1124102240) by User:ImageRemovalBot - operated by User:Carnildo who may have more background on this. There are about 20,000 articles like that. — xaosflux Talk 23:34, 27 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I have no objection to the addition when an image in the article is deleted. I just think that there's a shelf life beyond which they are no longer useful, and become nothing more than pollution of the Wikitext. I would say that after a few years (perhaps two or three, even), the notice has outlived any utility it may have initially had. BD2412 T 23:48, 27 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Is there any actual need to remove these comments? If not, they should probably only be removed as part of an other edit, and certainly not by a bot. Animal lover |666| 06:15, 28 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The need to remove these comments is that useless strings of hidden wikitext make it more difficult to find and edit the wikitext that needs editing. From my own experience, I fix a lot of punctuation errors, and would prefer not to be bothered finding such errors in hidden text, where they crop up for some reason. BD2412 T 17:45, 28 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
If this is going to happen, one thing to consider going forward would be to ask the bot to add the date to the comment (e.g. Deleted image removed 20221128: ...) to make it easier on future updates. — xaosflux Talk 17:49, 28 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Maybe that information should be added to the talk page instead of the wikitext. ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 17:51, 28 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I can see the value in noting where in the article an image has been removed from, as it makes it easy to add a new one or restore the old one if it is undeleted for some reason. However, the value in that decreases as the article develops without the image there - time is a proxy for that but I don't expect it's a very consistent one. There have been 54 revisions to Strongwoman since the image was removed, looking at some other articles the bot edited that day (20 July 2009) there have been thousands (so many it doesn't tell me the number) of revisions to Manchester Arena but only 9 to Type 518 radar. I think it would be rarely problematic to remove the text when it has been in place for the greater of 2 years and 50 edits, or where the article has since become a GA or FA (although how likely the text is to still be there in them I have no idea).
Timestamps are good idea, and posting on the talk page as well as the article also seems sensible. Thryduulf (talk) 21:43, 28 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@ONUnicorn I suggested in the wikitext, as that would make a future bot cleanup job much easier (as it would have the data there - as opposed to having to try to scrape the history to see how long it was there). Now another possibility would be to have that bot not do this at all anymore, and instead just post it to the article talk page. Not sure if that would be even less useful though? — xaosflux Talk 21:50, 28 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I can see the use of such a hidden note for a short period. An editor currently working on the page notices that an image has disappeared, clicks to edit to see if there is something wrong in the wikitext, and sees a note explaining that the image has been deleted, so they don't have to chase after what happened to it. I would say that if such notes are going into the wikitext, they should be there for two years at most (no matter how many edits have been made to the page, if no one has bothered after a deleted image for multiple years, the note will be of no further value). BD2412 T 17:14, 29 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The original reason for replacing the images with something was to avoid breaking table layouts. I don't know if that's still a problem or not. The specific replacement with a comment was as a result of a discussion during OrphanBot's approval back in 2005; when I split OrphanBot's tasks between ImageTaggingBot and ImageRemovalBot, ImageRemovalBot inherited the behavior. --Carnildo (talk) 19:30, 29 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Global deleters addition at Global rights policy

Turns out m:Global deleters Is a thing... Was just boldly added to Gpedia:Global rights policy. This was after a 2 hour discussion at the Bureaucrats' noticeboard. If you are interested: Gpedia:Bureaucrats' noticeboard#Request for permission to run Synchbot Terasail[✉️] 21:12, 3 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Should global deleters be permitted to delete local pages when fulfilling m:Synchbot requests?

This would be made effective with the section currently {{proposed}} at Gpedia:Global rights policy#Global deleters. This follows the above-mentioned thread at WP:BN.

Note: There is (currently) only one global deleter (who previously carried out this function with local admin privileges). –xenotalk 23:21, 3 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • I would prefer wording this in a slightly different way ("should the English Gpedia allow Synchbot to delete pages", incorporating the way Synchbot works by reference), but otherwise support this. * Pppery * it has begun... 23:37, 3 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Synchbot is only a concept, an ideal… –xenotalk 23:42, 3 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Yes — pre-existing global user right (2014) designed for this use case — TheresNoTime (talk • they/them) 23:40, 3 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Reluctant yes. Yes as far as the WP:GRP goes, this works and is fairly uncontroversial. Reluctant in that I don't like this process and think it needs to be overhauled, but that needs to happen upstream, and upstream from there at the lack of developers - and I don't think we should break this fairly rare process here in the meantime. — xaosflux Talk 23:56, 3 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • The very fact that it's rare - about 30 deletions a year - means that "breaking" it is of minimal harm; and I don't see how it's been broken at commons or arwiki anyway, which have both for many years required Synchbot to place a speedy tag instead of just deleting. —Cryptic 00:56, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Yes per xaosflux. --Rschen7754 00:01, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • I'd be less uncomfortable with this if m:Synchbot made it explicit that it won't delete pages that have been moved into userspace. I trust Pathoschild, as a former enwiki admin, already checks for that; I have no way to know if whoever else starts up a new Synchbot-like service in some nebulous future after Pathoschild goes inactive will think to. —Cryptic 00:56, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Yes to this and the CSS/JS section below. No preference on wording; I'm not really fussed about how we choose to define the rules for one trusted person and their ~30 uncontroversial deletions a year. Giraffer (talk·contribs) 09:35, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • If there's also a bot approval for it Besides the question as to whether the bot should be allowed to use its global permission here, there's also compliance with WP:BOTPOL and Gpedia:Global rights policy#Global bots to be considered here. Anomie 14:42, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Anomie: Should this be done even though it's not a bot in the traditional sense? Although on Meta it is marketed as a bot, in practice it is a user running a semi-automated script on their own account. –xenotalk 15:20, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    @Anomie there is no bot here, this is just a script that is letting a person script some of their (rather infrequent) actions. The only person that ever does this doesn't do it unattended either. — xaosflux Talk 15:54, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    @Xeno and Xaosflux: How odd that there's a bot account with the name, and this RFC is talking about allowing the bot to operate, and the linked topic at WP:BN is titled "Request for permission to run Synchbot", but the bot doesn't actually perform the task. If a human continues doing it in a semi-automated manner, then ok. If it becomes an actual bot at some point, then said bot would need a BRFA. Anomie 23:35, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    There's no bot account with that name. Synchbot is a bot in the general sense of 'a tool or script which performs actions', but not in the enwiki policy sense of 'an account with a bot flag' (similar to other tools like Pywikibot). So 'Synchbot' is both the custom bot library (which performs the edits/deletions) and the abstract service (which users submit requests for), and I use that library through my regular wiki account to fulfill those requests. The naming dates back to 2008 when I guess that usage was more common. —Pathoschild (talk) 01:03, 5 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    @Anomie this entire discussion so far has nothing at all to do with the account Special:CentralAuth/Synchbot, which is a doppelganger that only exists to avoid having someone register it and cause confusion with the script of the same name that we are talking about. — xaosflux Talk 01:14, 5 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Sure. Except where the BN thread specifically said "Request for permission to run Synchbot", and some above said similar things. Anomie 01:57, 5 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    @Anomie I think we can agree the names are confusing! "Synchbot" is an action automation tool, it runs under the credential of a logged in user; the only person that ever uses it (pathoschild) has some global permissions that mostly let it work on all WMF wiki's. That person was until very recently an admin here, who resigned in the face of upcoming inactivity requirements. They would like to keep using it here, using their global permissions. They asked on BN, even though that really isn't the right venue - but they were following up on their resignation -- which has led us to here. — xaosflux Talk 02:20, 5 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • This should be allowed. These three points define enough of a scope for the rights use. Terasail[✉️] 15:30, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Yes, and strikes me as something that should be relatively uncontroversial given the minimal risks compared to the benefit that the service provides. -- Ajraddatz (talk) 19:51, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Interface editing

Another task Synchbot does is make edits to user CSS/JS pages. This is even rarer than deletions, and was historically allowed by virtue of his global interface editor access, but, by a strict reading of Gpedia:Global rights policy#Global interface editors is now prohibited since Pathoschild has previously had the administrator or interface administrator right removed at the English Gpedia. I suggest changing the quoted section, and while I'm at it the substantively identical wording at Gpedia:Global rights policy#Global rollbackers, to previously had the administrator or interface administrator right for cause removed at the English Gpedia * Pppery * it has begun... 00:28, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Agree: this makes sense to me. –xenotalk 00:37, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Shouldn't that be "removed for cause", or is this an ENGVAR issue? —Cryptic 01:13, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Should be "removed for cause", that was a typo. * Pppery * it has begun... 01:29, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"Inactivity" is a cause. — xaosflux Talk 01:15, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
But I'm fairly open to supporting an update to that that would get around voluntary resignations, or even just procedural inactivity removals alone. — xaosflux Talk 01:18, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I was thinking "for cause" in the sense that Gpedia:Former administrators/reason/for cause (and the mainspace redirect for cause) uses it, not "for any cause at all", which would be obviously useless. * Pppery * it has begun... 01:29, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I agree with Xaosflux that I would prefer not to use "for cause" as a blanket term that is assumed to exclude procedural removal of user rights, if there is consensus for a change. I think for clarity it would better to list the specific exceptions desired. isaacl (talk) 02:15, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"for any reason other than inactivity" (the wording used at WP:EFH) would seem to work here. If there are other reasons for admin removal then they can be spelled out too. Thryduulf (talk) 14:50, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You would also need to explicitly exclude resigning (since that's what Pathoschild technically did). I'm still not convinced of the need to spell this out any further than my initial proposal, though. * Pppery * it has begun... 15:13, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • OK so GIE's can edit here if they were never admins, assuming they follow all other types of policies and don't do things that make people mad.... We certainly don't want GIE's operating when the editor was already desysoped for cause related to negative behaviors here. Inactivity isn't really the same, since if they just never bothered to become an admin here it wouldn't apply. Since we're touching the GRP\GIE section how about a bigger change
  • FROM:
    • Global interface editors can use their rights by default, provided they have not previously had the administrator or interface administrator right removed at the English Gpedia. If removal has previously occurred, they must request and be granted interface administrator and/or administrator access locally by an English Gpedia Bureaucrat. Furthermore, any English Gpedia bureaucrat can ask a global interface editor to stop using their global privilege if what they deem to be misuse occurs, and the global interface editor must comply with such a request. Such a decision by a bureaucrat can be appealed to the wider community. Failure to comply may result in a block. Interface editors are reminded that some interface pages, such as the watchlist, require discussion prior to use.
  • TO:
    • Global interface editors canmay use their rights by default, provided they have not previously had the administrator or interface administrator right removed at the English Gpediainvoluntarily, other than procedurally for inactivity. If such a removal has previously occurred, they must request and be granted interface administrator and/or administrator access locally by an English Gpedia Bureaucratprior to using this access. Furthermore, any English Gpedia bureaucrat can ask a global interface editor to stop using their global privilege if what they deem to be misuse occurs, and the global interface editor must comply with such a request. Such a decision by a bureaucrat can be appealed to the wider community. Failure to comply may result in a block. Interface editors are reminded that some interface pages, such as the watchlist, require discussion prior to use. Interface editors must comply with local policies, such as the protection policy.
I think that clears up this issue, and takes care of some housekeeping. — xaosflux Talk 21:45, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think this is covered by WP:IAR and WP:NOTBURO; we don't need to change policy due to a single exception. BilledMammal (talk) 21:59, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Justapedia: the far-right historical revisionist Gpedia FORK

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Yesterday I posted a message at ANI and it was suggested this was a more appropriate place to alert the community about Justapedia. Basically it is a proposed online encyclopedia being marketed as "the neutral and objective encyclopedia that Gpedia should have been". Yesterday the website was taken down after the post at ANI.

The creators of Justapedia appear to be active Gpedia editors who, unhappy with the way this community works, have download the entirety of English Gpedia with the intention of marketing it as their own. They have even plagiarised the majority of Gpedia's policies and guidelines. Since the post at ANI yesterday they seem to have taken their website down for now.

Where their project starts to diverge from Gpedia appears to be American politics and administration. In terms of content, the overwhelming majority remains what contributors to English Gpedia have made. But, they are removing critical commentary of conservative US political figures and engaging in some far-right historical revisionism, for example claiming Nazism is a left wing ideology that is comparable to contemporary US Democratic Party ideologies, on the right are some screenshots of some Justapedia diffs that were taken before visibility was restricted. In terms of project administration, they seem unhappy with community consensus and instead intend to retain complete control through a Politburo-like "Board of Representatives", while all editorial decisions will be enforced by a number political commissar-like appointees to the "Editorial Board".

The creators have even started their own foundation and of course an associated fundraising campaign, a promotional video has been uploaded to YouTube and it is being marketed on social media. I recommend going to YouTube and searching for "Justapedia". Apparently the Earthwave Society is sponsoring them for now [2]. It appears the same person founded both organisations, I assume they are Justapedia editor User:Justme, to the right is a screenshot of the since deleted user page comment that led me to believe this.

How does the community feel about active contributors here attempting to distort the ideology that led to the Holocaust for their own shallow political ends? And how does the community feel about these same Wikipedians attempting to profit from the years of hard work of the community? Justapidiot (talk) 07:21, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm not sure how 'the community' feels about it actually matters much, since the right to fork content has been built into the project from the start. That's how a Creative Commons license works. As long as content is properly attributed, it can be copied. And this isn't new - people have been creating Gpedia forks for years. They rarely last long. AndyTheGrump (talk) 07:33, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Is it being properly attributed? SilverserenC 07:38, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hard to tell, with the website down. Thought even if it isn't, actually doing anything about it isn't easy, since copyright for edits remains with individual contributors, and the WMF can't act on their behalf: see Gpedia:Mirrors and forks. AndyTheGrump (talk) 07:44, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I have blocked this account since the username references a controversy and insults people who have forked Gpedia, which is legitimate. I have no idea who this person is, but it seems clear to me that this is probably an illegitimate use of a sock account in an attempt to evade scrutiny. Cullen328 (talk) 07:57, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Cullen328 I have filed a DR on c:Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_uploaded_by_Justapidiot for these screenshots. Lemonaka (talk) 10:53, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The block was fine but I dont think there were trying to evade scrutiny as they are clearing receiving scrutiny and their username was clearly made in order to attract scrutiny. Qwv (talk) 12:29, 4 December 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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